ex-works tr4's

[lesmcguffog]

Not sure if anyone can help, but the attached was spotted on the yahoo rally forum

 

Les

________________________________________________________________________

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Message: 1

Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 09:31:33 -0500 (EST)

From: "J. Scott Morris" <jstmorris@yahoo.com>

Subject: Fwd: [CMSHG] Team Triumph TR4's in '64 Shell 4000

 

I received the following request on Cdn Motor Sport Historical Group list and thought you may be interested in the search for the '64 TR4 Shell 4000 rally car. Please pass the word around and/or put it in the club newsletters. Perhaps one of our club members can help Marcel.

 

Enjoy!! --Scott

 

Marcel Chichak <marcel_chichak@yahoo.com> wrote:

To: CMSHG@yahoogroups.com

From: Marcel Chichak <marcel_chichak@yahoo.com>

Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 17:38:40 -0800 (PST)

Subject: [CMSHG] Team Triumph TR4's in '64 Shell 4000

 

In 1964 Team Triumph entered 3 Works TR4's in the Shell 4000 rally. The

cars were prepared in New York by Kas Kastner and although they didn't

place exceptionally well, their legend is larger than life. So large,

in fact, that Revell has produced a model of one of the cars in 4000

trim. Unfortunately, the legitimacy of that car is in question.

 

When I started the 4000 history project I was contacted by a bloke in

Germany who claimed to have one of the cars and wanted to know if I had

the registration documents from the 4000, you know, the one with the

VIN number? I asked him to send me his VIN so I could check, but he

never followed through. He's been pestering me ever since. Late last

year I was contacted by an owner of one of the other TR4's who

confirmed my suspicions about the German car. Yesterday I was contacted

by another TR owner in Germany who wants to do an article about the

Works replica and expose the fraud. By coincidence I was also contacted

by Kas Kastner yesterday who also wants to do an article on the '64

Shell cars.

 

I'm trying to coordinate all these researchers so they, hopefully, come

up with the same result, but I need to follow up on one thing: it is

claimed that the REAL car is still in the USA in poor condition. The

hunt for the remains has to start somewhere, so I'll start it here.

Anyone know of a blue '64 TR4 in rally trim sitting around in the USA?

 

--

Marcel chichak

reply to Marcel@starchak.ca

homepage http://www.starchak.ca

www.shell-4000-rally.org

www.TDCperformance.ca

 

J. Scott Morris - Keep Smiling, Murphy Lives

[Tr4Tony]

Hi

 

Anyone with any information pertaining to this - please either contact Neil Revington at RTR or me via the forum. This is very interesting and relates to 5VC.

 

For the avoidance of any doubt 3 VC, 4VC and 6VC belong to TR Register members and there is absolutely no doubt about the provenance of these 3 UK based cars.

 

Each of the three will be at the Historic Motor Sports Show on the 24th, 25th and 26th on the centre stand in the hall, so you will be able to see them.

 

I will have 3 VC out rallying again this season for sure and these 3 cars will be at the International Weekend in July.

 

Regards

 

Tony

[rudi]

The story of the reincarnation of 5VC has been published in the German Magazine "Motor Classic" from 11/2003. Very hard to say if this is the real 5VC. Better question: What is the real and original 5VC? It appairs the id. 5VC was on 7 different chassis. What if another chassis that might have been run with the plate 5VC will appear somewhere and a new car will be build on that chassis. Will this be 5VC the 2nd? Will that be the original one or is Carsten Conrad's in Germany the original one? hard to tell. The article says: It has the enginenr. that matches with the delivery of the car in 64. That doesn' say anything or everything.

Acc. the article the car was presented to the swiss driver Jean-Jacques Thuner and his co-pilot John Gretener. That confirmed that based on all details, this car is the real 5VC that they have driven back then.

So this can be one of the "7 originals of 5VC". Real or not who will tell. Fact is that this car, as it was imported in 94 from the US by an American soldier stationed in Germany and when Carsten found it in 98 , app. had all the details of the other works cars, again according the article.

Today it seems a great car to me. The owner has restored it acc. all known details of the works cars, with a lot of effort and money. Did he want to cheat the community? Who will tell. Only the Gods know as probably only the Gods will know if this is an original works car or not. Somebody wants to proof the opposite? Fine. There is a lot of envy in this world and that will never change.

Regards, Rudi

[chris turner]

Who actually owns the registyration no for 5VC. Iknow it is not so important when the car has gone abroad but it can sometimes show the original car if it has a continuous history.It has been discussed before how much of the original car still remains but most competition cars have been re shelled at some point.

[Duncan Jolly]

lesmcguffog,

interesting top and some great links - thanks.

The attached pic is captioned 6VC but the number plate is unclear. However it proves teh point about re-bodys and re-shells - who is to say how original any car is - we all know the story of the 30year old broom

 

[Andrew Smith]

The attached pic is captioned 6VC but the number plate is unclear.

 

Hi Duncan, hope you are well.

 

This picture is clearer and the damage matches up; it shows the damage caused to 6VC in the 63 Alpine Rally – it must have been one hell of an impact!

 

Cheers

Andrew

 

[Duncan Jolly]

Andrew,

I am well thank you, and you?

 

So proves the point raised by Rudi. Compare our two pics with 6VC as she is now. I very much doubt if the same chassis has been used and it does not look as if a single panel could have been saved. Perhaps we should talk about a car not "being" but "having the heritage of".

 

This is and always will be a point of debate around famous cars unless of course they survived completely intact, which i suspect was very rare if they were being driven anything like they should. None of this is an issue to me, I think 3 VC, 4 VC, and 6 VC look great and teh owners and Neil Revington should be congratulated for restoring them to what we see today. I will certainly be at Stoneleigh to see them all together. And, I for one would be delighted if the car with the registration 5 VC ( In Germany I believe?) was there also.

 

I was fortunate to receive two 1/18 scale models of 5 VC, one by Revell and one by Jadi. The Revell one is in LHD form as driven in the Shell 4000, the Jadi one is RHD. Both are from the same original (model) design made by Revell GmbH - hence I suspect the reason 5 VC was chosen and not one of the other 3 cars. Neither are 100% accurate but do look fantastic.

Duncan.

[Andrew Smith]

Andrew,

I am well thank you, and you?

 

So proves the point raised by Rudi. Compare our two pics with 6VC as she is now. I very much doubt if the same chassis has been used and it does not look as if a single panel could have been saved. Perhaps we should talk about a car not "being" but "having the heritage of".

 

This is and always will be a point of debate around famous cars .......Duncan.

 

Duncan

 

I'm well, thanks - your point about replacement chassis and panels is interesting, it could also be extended to, dare I say, our lesser cars. So where does a completely restored TR2, 3, 4, 5 or 6 with a new chassis, interior and all new (repro or otherwise) panels etc, etc stand (I exclude TR7/8 for obvious reasons, but may equally apply dependant on extent of restoration) - does this mean they are not genuine?

 

I guess it just might boil down to “original condition: or “original specification” cars - any views?

 

Cheers

Andrew

 

PS, I'll give you a buzz at Stoneleigh, I'm travelling up with Mollygotz so fancy a pint?

[Davepowderblue]

As has been shown an original rally car is an impossibility , they have had many new chassis and sometimes complete new body shells throughout their rallying career with Triumph

 

The important factors must be percentage of proven original RALLYING parts EG alloy panels , engine number , horns , servo , (original) commission plate

 

 

Second , Complete history of ownership from 1964 when the cars were sold off by Triumph to their re - appearence in Europe from America .

 

This is difficult with American cars , but all that is known should be told .

 

 

yours Dave

[sirmatt]

I'm of a similar opinion to you all, the fact that someone has bothered to get the right bits together and "re-create" the car to as original spec as possible, in my eyes means you have the nearest you'll ever get to the original car.

 

The only problem arises when you have something like a work's rally car which over it's life will have had several major components changed. When one party gets hold of one lot of original parts and another party gets hold of other original parts, both decide to rebuild the car to it's original spec - who has the original car. It's very possible that they both could have an original engine, box, chassis etc etc. Both will have the heritage as they could have raced in different rallies.

 

I suppose if they are in different countries it would make things a bit easier. Probably doesn't bear thinking about

 

Regards

 

Mike

[Davepowderblue]

 

 

Mike

 

 

it would be interesting to see what major components these 4 cars still have in them

 

Which of the 4 cars has the most original features ?

 

 

Which the least !

 

 

Getting hold of the right period rally parts is only part of creating a rally car . You have to have the knowledge from a real car to put them together properly .

 

 

A shiny rebuilt car tells you little of its history . Photos pre and during the rebuild would be most interesting

 

 

yours Dave

[sirmatt]

Dave

 

I agree, by nature these cars had a hard life and were constantly being developed to make them more competitive. So the original car to be produced apart from having several different major components would also probably be a considerably different specification to the car used in the last rally.

 

So a restorer can only assume a potential set-up based on available records and the knowledge of others (unless they were there themselves).

 

It would be nice to have a totally original car, but unless it was sparingly used and locked in a gargae in 196* it's very rare thing to find. In reality if you have the chassis plate you have the car and all the components can be bought or made to make the car look like it should. As you say the art is creating the original look and feel of the car, which in fairness is in the eye of the beholder - as they say !!!!

 

Regards

 

Mike

[Davepowderblue]

Yes Mike ,

 

 

a chassis plate and you have a Works Rally car !

 

 

I know of a Mini Cooper with a famous 1960s owner , that was re-created that way !!

 

 

Glad my 2 cars are not famous .

 

 

yours Dave

[sirmatt]

Dave

 

Your right, I know of a very nice Ferrari which has "dubious" heritage !!

 

Regards

 

Mike

[Duncan Jolly]

This very topic was the subject of a famous court case some 10 or more years ago when two eccentric millionaires both laid claim to "their" particular Bentley Blower being ( I think) "old No1" ( sorry not much up on the History of these cars). The value of one of these cars was to be seriously affected by the judgement. I am afraid it was so long ago I cannot recall the outcome - perhaps one of you could enlighten us all?

I would hope we never get to this sad situation with any of our cars.

 

The situation is also very true in the Classic Warbird arena, where a small piece of an aircraft is recovered and from it a whole Spitfire or Mustang once flown by some Ace or another is restored to flying condition and is worth millions. The fact that most parts recovered have to be replaced due to corrosion etc is forgotten as everyone thrills to the sight and sound of a classic warbird with all the authentic markings goes through its paces at an air show. In fact there are several Mustangs for instance all in the same markings supposedly having been the original mounts of one of several USAF aces. Who really cares if it is not 100% the original? in our minds it represents and is evocative of the original. Then it serves its purpose.

 

As said earlier very very few of these cars can be truly original at best they may have some providence and more important they are on the road for us to see and enjoy. If Douglas Bader’s last Spitfire was intact do you think we would see it fly - no it would be in a museum. I know what I would prefer to see.

[Toddy]

Although it is probably of no interest to the rest of the forum, my opinion:-

A competition car is as original as the day it stopped competing. Which in other words means several new heads and lots of new handles to use the 'woodman's axe' analogy!!

Most "works" competition cars passed into private hands within a season or two of use and were subsequently modified to keep up with newer machinery. Modsports in the late 60's/70's is an example. Lots of famous Jaguars, Healey's and MG's went into this series as they were no longer competitive or eligible for international events and some were modified beyond recognition. Many of these cars now compete in historic events around the globe in their "original" form.

The easiest cars to define as "genuine" are the ones that have been used in competition the longest, despite many replacement parts.

The hardest ones to define as "genuine" are the ones lost in American scrapyards for decades....

Edited February 3, 2006 by Toddy

[Guest carco]

Dear friends,

 

I am the owner of the „dubious 5VC”. A friend told me about the discussion here. So I read these threads and I believe that I must write to this now.

Please excuse my bad English. It’s not so good and I hope it gives no misunderstands as in the past.

Always again I must read about “3VC”, “4VC” and “6VC” which should be all without doubts a complete and clear history. See the second thread of TR4Tony.

These words I heared already always again.

Last from TR4Tony in the US FOT email List and here again.

Now, in Germany we say a story will be not more truly when this will often be writing.

Now always again I must justify about my car.

Seriously peoples who have truly interest of the car I can give the complete story. And I do not sell my car! But now to the other side: Have everyone seen every papers, photos of and before the restoration , titles or every stuff which can proof the truly identity of 3VC, 4VC or 6VC? I believe no.

In Germany I must places all my papers of the car and the complete history for a Fiva pass and the registration. I could not make an unproofed statement about my car.

 

What the matter with the oteher cars?

4VC => what is still original or genuine?

The engine with carburettors, the gearbox and the rear axle are replacements. The bonnet, front wings and grill comes from another car. Wheels are not original. In the early nineties were the remains of this car restored by Neil Revington.

The car got a new frame and body. Only parts of the interior seems to be still original. The commission number plate not. Why not? Should it be however an original car with a complete history! What now is still original?

6VC => history?, photos? Never seen. No original engine, TR6 gearbox, modern carbs and manifolds (inlet and exhaust), rear axle?, panels never original, inner body never original, frame never original! Commission number plate not original. What is still original now?

3VC => Frame original??, I think no original, body no original, outer panels most are new. The bonnet from which we get always to hear it is the only one car with the original bonnet… is not original but I have an original!

The engine, gearbox and rear axle ? I don’t know but great doubts. I must see before I can say. The interior, not original. Commission number plate is not original! The only what seems to be original is the rear window with the old stickers and the carburettors with inlet manifolds. What is still original?

I know a great part of the history of “3VC”!

Now 5VC => Engine with carburettors, inlet and exhaust manifolds, gearbox with overdrive, rear axle with Salesbury LSD, inner body some outer panels with bonnet are original. Some parts of the interior as the drivers seat also. Commission number plate original!

History: Known from 1962 to mid 1970, (please read the article of Graham Robson “The kind of art” where told all the car was scrapped after the Shell 4000 Rally), 1971 to 1976 unknown. From 1976 is the title. The car stood approx. 14 years in an open barn. End of 1993 it comes to Germany. 1998 I got it. 2000 John Gretener had seen the car dismanteled in my garage.

2003 Jean-Jacques Thuner and John Gretener seen the car restored again.

Since I have the car I am searching all what I can get about the history of the car. And I got some stories also about the other cars.

So long English cars or motor bikes with history were out of England them were never acknowledged in England until them comes back to England. This were with the Napier Railton also with the Hailwood TT Ducati and still is with the car of Arved Otto the TRS or the Spitfire ADU 7B.

I can understand this. It's national. This what we don't have in Germany but it is not fair.

 

Original or genuine? We all know that a car can be genuine only if it will closed directly after his last effort.

And until this time some parts were already changed by the factory in this period.

My car runs about 100.000 mls in the USA and some parts were changed already by Dick Zwitzer who owns the car from 1964 until mid 1970 as he sold it (not scrapped!).

I was trying to restore the car so near as possible to the last known spec. of the Shell 4000 Rally the last works effort of this car. This is my think of a history car. Now the other Shell cars, if them are these Shell cars were reconverted to RHD cars. This is not the correct history of a history car! And tell me not you can not drive a LHD car in UK. I drive a RHD car in Germany!

 

Hope this helps.

Regards

 

Carsten Conrads

 

My Webpage

[rudi]

I am pleased to read the comment of the owner of 5VC. As said in my earlier reply, I have read the article about his car and from waht I have seen on the pictures, I can confirm that the car looks great and as original as can be. I have a huge admiration for the way he restored the car. (as well as for the other VC's).

Regards, Rudi

[chris turner]

I followed the letters in Triumph World about the VC rally cars and really 5VC seems to have as much claim to originality as the others. The difference is that the English based cars seem to have a contiuous history known to UK enthusiasts where 5 VC being out of the country for so long is not as well known over here so is treated as being non original. I would like to know if the registration 5VC is currently in use and if so on what car, I know it was on a Vittesse at some point in the 60s so who has the rights to the reg. It would be great to have all 4 cars together some time in the future.

[Davepowderblue]

Chris ,

 

4VC has a continuing history of ownership from being sold by Triumph to the present day .

 

 

6VC has unknown history from the end of the Shell 4000 in 1964 to when it came back to this country .

 

 

3VC is known of in Rochester New York in the 1960s , 1970s to when it returned to England are unknown .

 

 

 

5VC registration No. is still believed to be at DVLA where it has been since the car left the country in 64

 

yours Dave

[chris turner]

Thanks Dave, I have spent a lot of time looking at various articles about these cars as I am interested in ex works Triumphs. The one point most people agree with is that the current 6VC does not have its original chassis number or any of its original body(not even the bootlid!) which was destroyed in 1963. It was stated in Triumph World(Issue27 page 12) that the chassis number was re-used by Triumph and put on a road car for export to the US. Does this mean that if the current owner of that car finds out he has said chassis number he can claim he is the rightful owner of 6VC. Also as the car was reshelled and rebuilt using a new chassis, where are the originals, they werent used by the factory as they were too badly damaged. Could they also re-emerge with a claim to 6VC. In actual fact if the owner of the original chassis and body(hypothetical), buys the road car with the original chassis number which was quite successful, would they have a better claim than the new car which has a new chassis number and no historic competition success. In the Classic car magazine featuring 3VC it says about 4VC "Neil carried out a lengthy rebuild on what was little more than a pile of rust" (Feb1999 page66) It seems 5VC consisted of more than a pile of rust? I know there is no question about 4VCs authenticity as it is the "only"car with continuous history from the day it left the factory and as such is entitled to replace parts along the way, the problems occurr when duplicates of the original parts are no longer available and we see them with later replacements. I really am not worried about the 100% provenance of these cars but think the only real chance of all four being preserved is by including 5VC, I think the owner has spent far more than its value on restoration, would he have done so if it wasnt the real thing. Until we have other claimants, lets be grateful the whole team has survived even though they have all been restored.

[Davepowderblue]

 

 

Hi Chris ,

yes got all the magazines as well , you are quite right about 6VC

 

 

 

The German car 5VC is the most impressive looking car . It looks exactly like the Shell rally car of 1964 .

 

 

It has significant original car parts the other 3 cars do not have .

 

 

Dave

[marko]

Don't forget 7VC - this is the next closest TR4 to the works machines - but improved and better IMHO.

 

www.7vc.co.uk

 

Should cause quite a stir on its first competitive rally this year!

 

Enjoy.....

[chris turner]

What a great car hope its successfull, how did you get the registration or has it always been on the car?

[marko]

It's not mine! I wish it was......

 

I believe the registration was acquired for a princely sum and the car was built for an even more princely sum - it is absolutely staggering to see it.......

 

what an addition to the Works cars......