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Fuel Hose Specification (High Pressure)


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Hi,

I started a new topic where we can put specific information related to the specification of hoses, fittings of the HP fuel hoses (Pump to PRV and Fuel line under car to MU).

Below I drafted what I learnt so far, mainly from the good knowledge from others on this forum, and some suppliers, like Neil Revingtons website.

For low permeability hoses, with no smell at all, the best choise available currently are PTFE (lined) hoses, but these have the disadvantage of a potential for vibrations due to the inability to dampen the (Bosch) pump-pulsations.

A new, different PRV that works with a membrane and dampens the pulsations can eliminate this problem, and is sold by several TR-suppliers.

Rubber hoses are better suited for damping the pulsations if the standard PRV is used, but do "sweat", and the emissions can result in a nasty petrol smell in the boot.

Gates manufacture a hose called Gates Barricade Fuel Hose MPI, which accoding to the manufacturer, has the lowest emission rates on the market. According to their brochure, the fuel loss on a "standard" hose is 4 litre/ year / 60 cm length of hose, while their Barrier hose only loses 0.03 litre for the same hose, so more than 100 times less.

It is a relative comparison as many factors influence the permeability off course.

Note the fuel savings over the life of the hose could justify a more expensive hose if the above is correct.

 

Until now I was not able to find a supplier who supplies the 2 complete hose asssemblies with the Gates Barricade hose but have just requested one supplier if he can. My preference would be to order the complete assemblies from a supplier.

Once I have feedback I will let you all know off course.

 

Here is a link to the Gates general information of the Barricade MPI hose:

http://www.gates.com/products/automotive/powersport-recreational/fuel-system/barricade-fuel-injection-hose-mpi

 

And a link to the brochure with more info:

http://www.gates.com/oreilly/PDFs/Fuel%20Systems.pdf

 

The hose we require is called Gates Barricade Fuel Line Hose (MPI).

It is suitable for a continuous working pressure of 225 PSI and a working temperature of 135 oC.

Be aware that the maximum pressure and temperature often cannot be combined as a working condition.

 

Ordering the Gates hose itself is the easy part, you can order it through ebay or other sources, mainly from the USA and Australia, in several lengths, also shorter lengths.

 

The difficulty I see is the fittings and assembly.

Below is a picture of one of my fittings (hose to MU), not sure if this is and original fitting, maybe someone can confirm?
My old hose (Aeroquip) was simply pushed on, no clamp or pressed steel sleeve was used. It did not leak, but the outer layers are fractured and hard.

The outer diameter of the ferrules on the hose to the MU is 1/4" (6,25mm) , while the ferrules from the hose from pump to PRV measured 3/8" (9,7 mm).

post-13554-0-08622400-1503220165_thumb.jpg
So it looks like 1/4"and 3/8" hoses are required, I am not sure mine are standard, however.

 

Update December 2018: I ordered a spare hose from Moss (Bosch Pump to PRV), this came with a Codan hose with braided outer sleeve; it is not a low permeability hose amd also just inside the allowable pressure according to Cadan, so I removed the Codan hose and replaced with a Gates Barricade hose. The ID for these Moss fittings is 8 mm (or 5/16"), not 10 mm (3/8"), so check your fitting diameters first before ordering the Barricade hose.

I do not want to take any risk given the critical service of these hoses, and assuming that what you have is "good" is a risk, especially if you are not very fmiliar/knowledgeable with fittings/hoses (I am not).

 

I am interested in other opinions / information / sources and experiences, especially as I am aware some of us have used this hose already.

Did it really give a significant improvement in petrol smell reduction?

Can you order new fittings easily (I have no idea what and where to order, being a "metric guy" does not help here.
I prefer not to re-use my old fittings.

Is assembly a job you can do without special equipment, or is it better outsourced?

 

 

Regards,

Waldi

Edited by Waldi
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Hi Waldi,

 

I use Gates Barricade( MPI grade). There is much less smell in the boot than with the old hoses . Note I found a pinhole leak in the last PRV return hose to the tank which wouldn't of helped the smell.

 

I use barbed fittings similar to your photograph, each is secured with two quality ss jubilee clips, screws spaced 180 degrees apart, screw heads facing the same side. The system working pressure is only 100psi , which I wouldn't class as extreme, even with petrol as the working fluid.

 

Note that I've found that the bending radius( without kinking) of the Barricade MPI hose is much larger than SAE J30 R9 and R12 hoses that I've used in the past. This may require some alteration of the fuel piping route particularly at the passenger side wheel well where the line exits the boot and ,in my case, where the PRV return line connects to the tank- I have a passenger side return connection on the tank and I needed to replicate an existing anti resonance loop. Lower pressure rating hoses with conventional bend radii may be more suited to the low pressure tank connection duties .

 

I couldn't get your first link to open but the product I used is described in the flyer data sheet included in the link below:

 

https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjh2-S63OXVAhXHEbwKHSb-CnUQFggzMAI&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.gatesaustralia.com.au%2Fproducts%2Fautomotive%2Fpassenger-car-and-light-truck%2Ffuel-system%2Fbarricade-fuel-injection-hose-mpi&usg=AFQjCNFjhStQvH2vv9G8uu0mMep95N_lVw

 

Here's a link to the Jubilee clip pressure ratings;

 

http://www.jubileeclips.co.uk/products/original/

 

One clip should be adequate, I use two with the 180 degree spacing to ensure a good seal around the whole fitting circumference.

Edited by Mike C
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Hi Waldi,

 

I use Gates Barricade( MPI grade). There is much less smell in the boot than with the old hoses . Note I found a pinhole leak in the last PRV return hose to the tank which wouldn't of helped the smell.

 

I use barbed fittings similar to your photograph, each is secured with two quality ss jubilee clips, screws spaced 180 degrees apart, screw heads facing the same side. The system working pressure is only 100psi , which I wouldn't class as extreme, even with petrol as the working fluid.

 

Note that I've found that the bending radius( without kinking) of the Barricade MPI hose is much larger than SAE J30 R9 and R12 hoses that I've used in the past. This may require some alteration of the fuel piping route particularly at the passenger side wheel well where the line exits the boot and ,in my case, where the PRV return line connects to the tank- I have a passenger side return connection on the tank and I needed to replicate an existing anti resonance loop. Lower pressure rating hoses with conventional bend radii may be more suited to the low pressure tank connection duties .

 

I couldn't get your first link to open but the product I used is described in the flyer data sheet included in the link below:

 

https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjh2-S63OXVAhXHEbwKHSb-CnUQFggzMAI&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.gatesaustralia.com.au%2Fproducts%2Fautomotive%2Fpassenger-car-and-light-truck%2Ffuel-system%2Fbarricade-fuel-injection-hose-mpi&usg=AFQjCNFjhStQvH2vv9G8uu0mMep95N_lVw

 

Here's a link to the Jubilee clip pressure ratings;

 

http://www.jubileeclips.co.uk/products/original/

 

One clip should be adequate, I use two with the 180 degree spacing to ensure a good seal around the whole fitting circumference.

I took the old fittings off my 2 HP hoses had them re zinc plated and used them again with swaged sleeves on Gates Barricade 221 psi Hose. No problems so far!

Bruce,

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I've just replumbed all mine too. I opted for r9 spec hose as it was easy to get hold of and finished the hoses off with 'Sytec pro hose clamp finishers' from Demon Tweaks. Cheap enough and look tidy enough to boot!

Bending a new short bit of tube from the PRV to the supply line forward did pose a bit of a challenge though, such a convoluted shape, took me four attempts!

Result: no noise and no smell.

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Watch out for hose marked as SAE J30 R9. It seems that alot of the stuff being sold is "fake". I've had two lots on my car now and both have been badly cracked within two years. This seems to affect mostly the outer layer (two layer hose) so I've not had any leaks or fuel smells but looks very scary. Has affected all sections on the car whether exposed to heat/light or not.

 

see also

http://www.club.triumph.org.uk/cgi-bin/forum10/Blah.pl?m-1502662339/

 

I've replaced with Cohline 2240 which is marketed as being suitable for biofuels. Gates Barricade is another excellent option.

 

Nick

Edited by Nick Jones
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Watch out for hose marked as SAE J30 R9. It seems that alot of the stuff being sold is "fake". I've had two lots on my car now and both have been badly cracked within two years. This seems to affect mostly the outer layer (two layer hose) so I've not had any leaks or fuel smells but looks very scary. Has affected all sections on the car whether exposed to heat/light or not.

 

see also

http://www.club.triumph.org.uk/cgi-bin/forum10/Blah.pl?m-1502662339/

 

I've replaced with Cohline 2240 which is marketed as being suitable for biofuels. Gates Barricade is another excellent option.

 

Nick

I purchased some SAE J30 R9 from a UK supplier 3 years ago. It didn't look all that special except for the labelling on the outside. When I replaced it recently the internal surface was going "tacky" from the modern unleaded fuel available here.

 

I used it to make a test rig for setting the PRV-where it's exposed to fuel once a year or so.

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An alternative for fixed, not flexible lines is "Hardline" aluminium tube. Krontec or Goodrich make. Bad Obsession Motorsport are using it for their Binky project, so can't be all bad!

 

Eg: https://www.viperperformance.co.uk/braided-fuel-hoses_10095_hardline-aluminium-tubing-coil-2.html

 

Before this was available, I used 10mm copper pipe, with compression fittings, and have no reason to change it.

John

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If anyone is interested in a group buy of something like this, I'll have a slice!

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If anyone is interested in a group buy of something like this, I'll have a slice!

The roll is 7.6mtrs or about 25ft. or there is this http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/GATES-27348-BARRICADE-FUEL-INJECTION-HOSE-4219-06038-/301745069036?hash=item4641685bec

Same size but smaller 4.6mtr roll or 15ft

Stuart.

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Hi Waldi,

 

I use Gates Barricade( MPI grade). There is much less smell in the boot than with the old hoses . Note I found a pinhole leak in the last PRV return hose to the tank which wouldn't of helped the smell.

 

I use barbed fittings similar to your photograph, each is secured with two quality ss jubilee clips, screws spaced 180 degrees apart, screw heads facing the same side. The system working pressure is only 100psi , which I wouldn't class as extreme, even with petrol as the working fluid.

 

Note that I've found that the bending radius( without kinking) of the Barricade MPI hose is much larger than SAE J30 R9 and R12 hoses that I've used in the past. This may require some alteration of the fuel piping route particularly at the passenger side wheel well where the line exits the boot and ,in my case, where the PRV return line connects to the tank- I have a passenger side return connection on the tank and I needed to replicate an existing anti resonance loop. Lower pressure rating hoses with conventional bend radii may be more suited to the low pressure tank connection duties .

 

I couldn't get your first link to open but the product I used is described in the flyer data sheet included in the link below:

 

https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjh2-S63OXVAhXHEbwKHSb-CnUQFggzMAI&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.gatesaustralia.com.au%2Fproducts%2Fautomotive%2Fpassenger-car-and-light-truck%2Ffuel-system%2Fbarricade-fuel-injection-hose-mpi&usg=AFQjCNFjhStQvH2vv9G8uu0mMep95N_lVw

 

Here's a link to the Jubilee clip pressure ratings;

 

http://www.jubileeclips.co.uk/products/original/

 

One clip should be adequate, I use two with the 180 degree spacing to ensure a good seal around the whole fitting circumference.

Well as we know this is a new thread taken on from

My general unleaded questions.

I think we still all also need to consider other areas such as MU, injectors and injector pipes too. Many have been replaced with steel braided before the more agressive unleaded arrived..

You have been warned! ????

I agree with Mike. I use 2xJubilee turned at slightly different points on the hose. One is not enough.

You could use proper petrol clips though.

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I also keep asking myself besides the Gates.

What are new cars using.

Nearly everything is now high pressure so there should already be a standard out there now??

I mean new cars don't smell of petrol and hoses must be a legal spec?

Someone should know about this?

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Hi all, thanks for the very good supplies sofar, keep them coming!

I fixed the link in my first post to the Gates Barricade MPI hose general information.

 

Mike,

thanks for the link to the jubilee clip allowable pressure: it would be able to handle 203 psi, this number is off course just a guide, and very much depending on other factors like hose and ferrule, but it looks to be "sufficient", especially when 2 are used (rotated to each other).
​We all make our own choises, but I am with you, 2 jubilee clips and a barbed furrule should be ok.
Two clips is what I found on the Bosch pump outlet on an old hose I have by the way, and I assume it has worked (I did not drive the car).
​I think it is good if the hoses are pressure tested at say 1.5 times maximum working pressure (some 160 PSI) before installation.

Permeability is one aspect, a tube failure is of a different magnitude.

 

Nick,

the Cohline 2240 is a hose suitable for E10 (according to the vendor information), and has an allowable working pressure (AWP) of 10 bar and an allowable temperature of 257 F.

I could not find reference to SAEJ30 for this hose, but it is a German product, which may explain this (it refers to an old German spec (DIN 73379 / 3E) which I could not find, but looks like a suitable hose for our application.

 

Alan,

thanks for the link to Volksbolts.

It also contains a link to the 2008 edition of SAEJ30:
​I could not find a free copy on the internet of the latest edition (from 2012) so looked at the previous edition:

http://www.volksbolts.com/faq/SAEJ30.pdf

If you read this specification in more detail, it appears that:

 

SAE J30R9:

This is a hose suitable for "fuel injection" and has a minimum burst pressure of 62 bar (6.2 MPa) but is tested with fuel not containing ethanol ("test Fuel C").

Extract from the specification: "Exposure of this hose to gasoline or diesel fuel that contains high levels, greater than 5% by volume, of oxygenates, i.e., ethanol, methanol, or MTBE may result in significantly higher permeation rates than realized with ASTM Fuel C".
So it looks like it's primary focus is on the ability to cope with the higher pressures that can occur in some injection systems

 

SAEJ30R14:
​This is a "low-emission grade" but with a lower minimum burst pressure: 17,2 bar (1.72 MPa), but here the permeability is tested with a fuel mixture that does contain 10% ethanol. The Gates Barricade MPI hose (R14) has a sufficient high margin for pressure with an AWP of 225 PSI.

I wil see if I can get hold of this hose in The Netherlands.

 

Rem,

Yes, good question, what are the modern cars using for high pressure fule hoses (to what specification).
​There may not be many with a similar working pressure as our Triumphs?

 

Regards,

Waldi

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I also keep asking myself besides the Gates.

What are new cars using.

Nearly everything is now high pressure so there should already be a standard out there now??

I mean new cars don't smell of petrol and hoses must be a legal spec?

Someone should know about this?

Do many 'moderns' run at +105 -110 PSI??

Permeation would still be an issue though.

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The permeation test for specification SAEJ30 is measured with mimimal pressure (comparable with the head in the tank).

If the HP hose maintains pressure once the engine is stopped, the permeation will be higher, I guess.

Note, the LP hoses are better replaced by ethanol suitable hoses too.

Hose with SAEJ30 R9 spec is not the best suitable hose where permeation of ethanol containing fuel is considered.

Waldi

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No, the PI system always needs to be around 100 PSI to operate correctly. Assuming that it's even remotely near correctly sized, the pump does not influence the system operating pressure - it's set by the PRV bypass.

No sorry Mike I meant as in most modern car systems run Bosch and I presume a modern system is still fairly high pressure and thus specs for hoses should be similar to what we need?

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No sorry Mike I meant as in most modern car systems run Bosch and I presume a modern system is still fairly high pressure and thus specs for hoses should be similar to what we need?

Modern systems run between 30 to around 50PSI as they are governed by electronic injectors they dont need high pressure to get over springs or get forced around shuttle passages.

Stuart.

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Modern systems continue to develop. The latest include "gasoline direct injection" (GDI), which to acheive it's objective of ultra-lean, low emission combustion by a stratified charge has to be done into the already compressed chamber, very fast, so enormous pressure required. Typically 200 bar, or three THOUSAND psi!

 

John

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So bearing in mind I am convinced this is not a TR problem but a PI problem I am sure there must be a modern overall solution without the need to look for one particular supplier. After all what are all the other cars doing.

Mike mentioned the specifics of the TR but for instance I have another car that has the Bosch Jetronic system and it doesnt look that different to me as the pump is capable of producing a pressure of 8 bar (120 psi) with a delivery rate of approximately 4 to 5 litres per minute.

So I still think we are missing something here in that nearly every other PI system has the same requisites and ipso facto whatever is being mounted now in new cars must meet the specs anyway and if thats the case it should mean that a solution is already generally available.

Be good if someone in the know was reading this?

T

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Update: today I received a response from a leading TR supplier, he will not supply the hp hoses with Gates Barricade MPI rubber.

Firstly because there is no demand (I was the first who asked him), and secondly because there is a good alternative: ptfe lined hoses in combination with a membrane type PRV; from his perspective this makes sense. Off course, this alternative is more expensive.

I also called Gates and asked if the hose could be installed using jubilee clips on barbed ferrules, who confirmed this is acceptable, but crimped steel sleeves are preferred.

I have ordered a couple of feet of each hose diameter (I have 2 diameters on my car) in the US. Since I'm based in Holland sharing shipment costs did not seem beneficial (sorry John).

The Gates hose numbers for the correct grade are:

5/16" ID: 27335 (2 feet length)

3/8" ID: 27336 (2 feet length)

 

Update December 2018: I ordered a spare hose from Moss (Bosch Pump to PRV), it was cheap, so good for a spare. It came with fittings 8 mm (5/16"), so before you order a hose, check the required hose diameter based on the fittings you have, as they may deviate from original.

If you plan to order this hose yourselves, make sure you order the MPI grade, as there are different grades of "Barricade".

Regards,

Waldi

Edited by Waldi
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Update: today I received a response from a leading TR supplier, he will not supply the hp hoses with Gates Barricade MPI rubber.

Firstly because there is no demand (I was the first who asked him), and secondly because there is a good alternative: ptfe lined hoses in combination with a membrane type PRV; from his perspective this makes sense. Off course, this alternative is more expensive.

I also called Gates and asked if the hose could be installed using jubilee clips on barbed ferrules, who confirmed this is acceptable, but crimped steel sleeves are preferred.

I have ordered a couple of feet of each hose diameter (I have 2 diameters on my car) in the US. Since I'm based in Holland sharing shipment costs did not seem beneficial (sorry John).

The Gates hose numbers for the correct grade are:

5/16" ID: 27335 (2 feet length)

3/8" ID: 27336 (2 feet length)

If you plan to order this hose yourselves, make sure you order the MPI grade, as there are different grades of "Barricade".

Regards,

Waldi

Hi

Good.

Im going to ask some people who know about alternatives. Crimped sleeves will probably be a bit too permanent will think about it.

What are you thinking for injector pipes?

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