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CV-halfshafts WARNING!


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In october 2016 I installed CV-halfshafts including alloy-hubs, all at a price at over £1000.

It all has been changed by he deliverer because there was play in one hub and in the shafts (CV-joints).

But these CV-halfshafts and alloy-hubs are still not OK.

There is play in one hub (when cold an more when warm), which means that I am not confident driving the car.

And there is play in both CV-halfshafts, which means that the shafts are clonking

Regarding the alloy-hubs the deliverer now tells me, that I can either once again return the faulty hub for a rebuild, or he will send a selection of shims and new seals, so that I can let the hub rebuild or do it myself!!

Regarding the shafts the deliverer is of that opinion, that there shall be radial play in the CV-joints, and that it is normal.

My opinion is of course, that You install expensive CV-jointed halfshafts and ”uprated” hubs to avoid clonking and to get a safer car to drive.

But I do not expect to come any further with the deliverer. And perhaps it really is the best ”quality”, that he can deliver?

I have therefore refurbed my original standard halfshafts with new UJ´s, greased the splines well, and am planning to install them in the TR6 again.

The faulty items from Classic Driving Development Ltd. will be thrown in the bin, and I have (almost) forgotten the waste of £1000 :).

 

Cheers

Tage

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Unless you need to uprate a Classic car for Competition driving I see No reason to alter the Classic engineering and authenticity of a traditional Classic car! Nothing wrong with UJ's, but you have to maintain them!

 

However, I had to agree with a friend who has changing his rubber doughnuts to CV's on his original type Lotus Elan for safety reasons!

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Sorry to hear of your "down rated" CV/hub problem.... no surprise which is no consolation. Doubt anyone would want them refurbished and don't think my conscience would allow me to give them away. However, like Denis, TTR were fitted immediately to the 1970 Lotus before it all flew apart. Also I feel safer with Triumph metal beneath me than a bit of glass-fibre ;)

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if they aren't fit for use go to the small claims court and sue the company.

 

£1000 is not for losing, they should be begging you to take your money back.

 

Dennis is on the money, ST engineering really did know their business.

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Hi Tage,

I would be interested to buy the damaged items.

Before you throw them into the bin that might become a mutual benefit.

Additionally I can offer that I will inform you after all what I had to repair to use them.

 

Despite that offer I would contact the seller.

With no doubt the CV joints are not free of play

what does not make them unsafe in any case.

I do not understand fully, where this problem is

so it might be acceptable or a major damage.

 

The driveshaft is toothed and that fits into the CV joint.

At that position there is always some play but that does no harm.

Every modern car has that problem.

The question is how much play can be detected.

I had the same problem and thought it is too much.

It came from the individually made driveshaft.

 

In the next stage I bought a driveshaft new from VW and cutted it to length.

I had it welded together by a German specialist .

The play was reduced to an acceptable level but is still noticeable.

 

Also the wheel bearing area made some trouble because the aluminium

casing is much to weak. The bearing could twist in the housing with a terrible noise.

I made a new casing from steel.

 

So the construction itself is a very good idea but sometimes the parts

might be a problem. I do not know the British product but the two German

products also have their limitations.

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Having looked carefully at some of the products from this concern a couple of years back, I wasn't unduly impressed comparing it to OE equivalent. Just my personal opinion, of course.

 

I'm not convinced that it's that easy for someone from Denmark to utilise the small claims procedure, but for further advice Tage

 

https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/law-and-courts/legal-system/taking-legal-action/small-claims/small-claims/ and https://www.gov.uk/make-court-claim-for-money/overview and http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/reclaim/small-claims-court

 

Even the threat of court action might encourage the manufacturer to be more sympathetic . . . . .

 

However, looking at the Companies House listing of history for CDD, I wouldn't be holding my breath , , , , https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/07841972/filing-history

 

Cheers,

 

Alec

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Having looked carefully at some of the products from this concern a couple of years back, I wasn't unduly impressed comparing it to OE equivalent. Just my personal opinion, of course.

 

I'm not convinced that it's that easy for someone from Denmark to utilise the small claims procedure, but for further advice Tage

 

https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/law-and-courts/legal-system/taking-legal-action/small-claims/small-claims/ and https://www.gov.uk/make-court-claim-for-money/overview and http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/reclaim/small-claims-court

 

Even the threat of court action might encourage the manufacturer to be more sympathetic . . . . .

 

However, looking at the Companies House listing of history for CDD, I wouldn't be holding my breath , , , , https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/07841972/filing-history

 

Cheers,

 

Alec

Been saying this for years seen to many self destruct,but hey what do I know.

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Unless you need to uprate a Classic car for Competition driving I see No reason to alter the Classic engineering and authenticity of a traditional Classic car! Nothing wrong with UJ's, but you have to maintain them!

 

 

I have two sets in use and would not use anything else.

 

1.) There is a well known problem with loosing the rear wheel due to

breaking of the shaft where the bearings are fitted. This is fully cured

with the CV solution.

 

2.) The CV axle takes much less power and accepts bigger angles

without robbing power. So accelerating in first gears is much better.

 

3.) The spare parts are easy to obtain, its mostly Volkswagen.

 

4.) Under load the length of the universal shaft does not change,

the axle sticks with bad driving feeling.

 

5.) The CV axle runs very smooth and is perfectly balanced where

the splined peace of the universal axle gets play and locks in different

positions. So sometimes you have imbalance, sometimes not.

 

6.) The universal joints are at the limit. On a carb version they can be tolerated

but a well prepared PI must be driven smooth in the first gear not to damage them.

 

So, if the work is done properly the cv shafts are a very good add on to a TR6.

We should not kill that very good and very safe idea because the items are bad quality

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Toss they are for front wheel use and for lock you have been lucky.

Do not catch fully what you want to say, but cv is not limited for front wheel use.

BMW and my Porsche 964 have cv jointed driveshafts where the Porsche is the

worst somebody can do to a shaft.

 

Due to the engine in the back the car can jump forward if necessary.

only the burning clutch is the limit how much harm you want to do to it.

Much, much more torque than any other shaft must withstand.

 

-Anyway everybody is free to use what he likes. I only wanted to say that not

the principle is the culprit if something goes wrong but the way how the job is done-

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Toss they are for front wheel use and for lock you have been lucky.

 

The earth is round you know..... :P

 

Might as well say that UJs are only for farm machinery :ph34r:

 

New CVs don't have much, if any, backlash though there is sometimes a little in the spline where they attach to the shaft bar. I always assemble mine with a spline-lock compound. While they will gain a little more movement as they wear (slowly), large amounts do indicate a problem. Though in my experience large amounts of backlash in a Triumph drivetrain usually come from the diff.......

 

Nick

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Do not catch fully what you want to say, but cv is not limited for front wheel use.

BMW and my Porsche 964 have cv jointed driveshafts where the Porsche is the

worst somebody can do to a shaft.

 

Due to the engine in the back the car can jump forward if necessary.

only the burning clutch is the limit how much harm you want to do to it.

Much, much more torque than any other shaft must withstand.

 

-Anyway everybody is free to use what he likes. I only wanted to say that not

the principle is the culprit if something goes wrong but the way how the job is done-

+1 for Andreas The problem with the GKN/ BL original design, which was for a TR4, is that the U/J's are not big enough nor are the sliding splines. You only have to look at the size of the equivalent Jaguar ones to see what I mean? The rear wheel hub is also under sized both in bearings and diameter of stub axle. As said before: we have had 2 of our group members cars become 3 wheelers, so there is a major safety issue?

Lastly, I do not like the CCD CV type as the rear hubs, as they are not constructed from high tensile and the design is not to what current car manufactures use for pre-loaded bearings.

 

Bruce.

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In october 2016 I installed CV-halfshafts including alloy-hubs, all at a price at over £1000.

It all has been changed by he deliverer because there was play in one hub and in the shafts (CV-joints).

But these CV-halfshafts and alloy-hubs are still not OK.

There is play in one hub (when cold an more when warm), which means that I am not confident driving the car.

And there is play in both CV-halfshafts, which means that the shafts are clonking

Regarding the alloy-hubs the deliverer now tells me, that I can either once again return the faulty hub for a rebuild, or he will send a selection of shims and new seals, so that I can let the hub rebuild or do it myself!!

Regarding the shafts the deliverer is of that opinion, that there shall be radial play in the CV-joints, and that it is normal.

My opinion is of course, that You install expensive CV-jointed halfshafts and ”uprated” hubs to avoid clonking and to get a safer car to drive.

But I do not expect to come any further with the deliverer. And perhaps it really is the best ”quality”, that he can deliver?

I have therefore refurbed my original standard halfshafts with new UJ´s, greased the splines well, and am planning to install them in the TR6 again.

The faulty items from Classic Driving Development Ltd. will be thrown in the bin, and I have (almost) forgotten the waste of £1000 :).

 

Cheers

Tage

 

Get your money back! Do not bin them?

 

Bruce.

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In the light of the issues Tage has raised in this post, I would appreciate the learned views of those more in the know than me regarding the options for new hubs and driveshafts - there have been a number of other comments regarding the quality of various components and suppliers and I have to admit to being somewhat unsure of what to proceed with .

 

Regarding hubs, am I right in thinking most of the usual suppliers stock hubs made by Bastuck and a number of people have experienced problems with them - can anyone recommend an alternative supplier which doesn't cost the earth for normal driving styles. I'm nervous to consider reconditioned existing hubs because of adverse comments on here about their reliability/safety.

 

Re driveshafts, I understand the cheap (chinese??) ones as supplied by TR Shop don't last very long ( you get what you pay for), but they do an uprated and heavier duty one for just over double the price - anyone any experience of these?

 

Proptech do an uprated over standard driveshaft which looks good value at approx 75% cost of the TR Shop uprated ones, but they don't do hubs, so only a partial solution.

 

SC Parts do an uprated CV driveshaft and hub which are on a par costwise with the CDD ones but does anyone have any knowledge about how good they are - do they use Bastuck hubs?

 

Is there anyone else who does a good combined driveshaft/hub package? Or am I being overly and unnecessarily cautious?

 

Cheers

Rich

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In the light of the issues Tage has raised in this post, I would appreciate the learned views of those more in the know than me regarding the options for new hubs and driveshafts - there have been a number of other comments regarding the quality of various components and suppliers and I have to admit to being somewhat unsure of what to proceed with .

 

Regarding hubs, am I right in thinking most of the usual suppliers stock hubs made by Bastuck and a number of people have experienced problems with them - can anyone recommend an alternative supplier which doesn't cost the earth for normal driving styles. I'm nervous to consider reconditioned existing hubs because of adverse comments on here about their reliability/safety.

 

Re driveshafts, I understand the cheap (chinese??) ones as supplied by TR Shop don't last very long ( you get what you pay for), but they do an uprated and heavier duty one for just over double the price - anyone any experience of these?

 

Proptech do an uprated over standard driveshaft which looks good value at approx 75% cost of the TR Shop uprated ones, but they don't do hubs, so only a partial solution.

 

SC Parts do an uprated CV driveshaft and hub which are on a par costwise with the CDD ones but does anyone have any knowledge about how good they are - do they use Bastuck hubs?

 

Is there anyone else who does a good combined driveshaft/hub package? Or am I being overly and unnecessarily cautious?

 

Cheers

Rich

Hi Rich,

I went for the SC MK 2 package 5K miles ago and have had no problems with them in service, other than the fact that my car drives much better than my original GKN/BL ones! The hubs are in a different league to the original GKN ones, who supplied BL originally. The down side of the SC ones is that they require Tool Making experience to fit them correctly, which I had from having served an apprenticeship for that in the motor components industry. It is the fitting of the male spline to the female hub spline that has to be done very precisely. It has to be an interference fit! It took me 2 1/2 hours in total to do both. Therefore no backlash on the splines! Also you need a bloody great torque wrench with a 30 m/m socket and torque it up to about 240 newtons??? That meant a trip to my local MOT garage to use theirs! Also you have to remove the rear silencer box and the last 2 exhaust pipes. The whole complete assembly (unit) cannot be threaded through the hole in the radius arm. The drive shaft has to come through from the inside of the hub as the CV is too big to go through the hole from the outside. Lastly one can have a hole size problem with the diff flange holes, as they vary in size, to connect up to the actual drive shaft. I had to ream 2 of the diff flange holes for the bolts to connect up to the D/S correctly.

I am not convinced that everyone could fit these properly?

 

QA: do they use Bastuck hubs? I do not know? but they look to be, very well made from CNC Machined steel and the bearings are big along with silicone rotary grease seals. So the seals will not go hard!

 

Bruce.

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Bruce - thanks for the response, however can you explain in more detail what you mean by:

 

" It is the fitting of the male spline to the female hub spline that has to be done very precisely. It has to be an interference fit! It took me 2 1/2 hours in total to do both"

 

I presume the driveshaft and hub come separated ( as they have to be separate to fit through trailing arm from your comments) but do you mean they are not machined accurately to fit together - how do you fit two mating splines "very precisely" ?

 

Puzzled!

 

Rich

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Bruce - thanks for the response, however can you explain in more detail what you mean by:

 

" It is the fitting of the male spline to the female hub spline that has to be done very precisely. It has to be an interference fit! It took me 2 1/2 hours in total to do both"

 

I presume the driveshaft and hub come separated ( as they have to be separate to fit through trailing arm from your comments) but do you mean they are not machined accurately to fit together - how do you fit two mating splines "very precisely" ?

 

Puzzled!

 

Rich

The splines are broached both male and female but the male is on purpose over size to get the interference fit. This method of manufacture is tried and tested. Therefore, one has to cover the male spline with engineers blue. It has a slight taper to allow slight entry into the hub. Enter it on to the female by tapping with a hide hammer and then pull it off the male. This may entail using a hub puller! Then look at the male splines for the shinny parts where the engineers blue has been rubbed off. These are the high spots, using Swiss Files and Medium Grade Emery Cloth. You then reduce these areas very carefully and then re- enter after re-applying the engineers blue again and repeat this process until, you have at least 3 threads of the stub axle sticking out on the outside of the hub. You can then screw on the 30 m/m nut to enable the stub axle to be drawn through the hub. Hence the interference fit. Before parting the male and female you then mark both parts up with a centre punch, exactly inline, so that when you assemble these parts, you can line them exactly.

 

Bruce.

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Maybe we are at cross purposes but I have SC Parts (Limora) CV driveshafts on my TR6 after a wheel came off due to a snapped shaft. It was not an experience I would ever want to repeat although luckily it happened at not much more than walking pace and virtually no damage was caused. The incident frightened me so much that the thought of staying with a standard or standard-ish driveshaft arrangement was not an option for me.

 

The Limora shafts came fully assembled. I fitted them to the car just as they came. Straight bolt-in replacement in my case at both the diff and hub-carrier ends. No issues whatsoever other than getting them torqued-up at my local garage. No clonks, no backlash, no problems. The car was/is transformed. You don't realise how you've been picking and choosing when to change gear to avoid the more unpleasant effects of spline-lock until this wholly undesirable characteristic has been removed from the TR driving experience. The eradication of the UJs and the maintenance-free nature of the entire installation are just bonuses.

 

Cheers,

 

Steve

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Maybe we are at cross purposes but I have SC Parts (Limora) CV driveshafts on my TR6 after a wheel came off due to a snapped shaft. It was not an experience I would ever want to repeat although luckily it happened at not much more than walking pace and virtually no damage was caused. The incident frightened me so much that the thought of staying with a standard or standard-ish driveshaft arrangement was not an option for me.

 

The Limora shafts came fully assembled. I fitted them to the car just as they came. Straight bolt-in replacement in my case at both the diff and hub-carrier ends. No issues whatsoever other than getting them torqued-up at my local garage. No clonks, no backlash, no problems. The car was/is transformed. You don't realise how you've been picking and choosing when to change gear to avoid the more unpleasant effects of spline-lock until this wholly undesirable characteristic has been removed from the TR driving experience. The eradication of the UJs and the maintenance-free nature of the entire installation are just bonuses.

 

Cheers,

 

Steve

HI Steve,

 

I agree with you about the transformation in the way the car dives and the rear suspension works as it should! My Limora were a new Mk2 version of there original design rated at 300BHP. They supplied an instruction booklet with them which basically described what I have explained in my previous thread #19. I did speak to them about fitting of the drive shaft to hub and they refunded me £100! So I do not know if this process still has to be done, in such detail? That is why I have my reservations about being fitted by most people and that would include Classic Car Garages? After using the BL/GKN drive shafts for over 40 years and greasing them every other year with CV grease. I never had to replace any U/Js, only one centre sliding spline shaft. But what I did not realise was that the originals were in a state of semi or full lock up for all the time that the car was in motion! Hence the CV transformation when this type is fitted!

 

Bruce

 

 

 

Bruce.

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Hmmm it’s always a difficult one and I guess I’ll get shot down in flames for saying this.

Firstly we buy a classic car, I assume not because they are cheap, but because we like something about the sense of uniqueness of owning one, whether it’s the history, style, performance or feel even some long ago memories of a specific model or marque of car.

After all if someone just wants a nice reliable comfy convertible there are plenty of MX5’s about at less than 10k for cars that have only just had their first MOT, so probably comfier, easier to live with, significantly safer and still fun.

And don’t get me wrong I’m no specification pedant, there are modifications which make sense, especially if you go racing or hill climbing, they are period or if original specification or quality parts are no longer available but as Denis says sliding splines and UJ’s work within limitations but they are between 40 and 50 years old now and will have to be maintained or replaced so a bit like the rest of our cars, they need a bit of looking after. I don’t think modern service intervals of 20k plus would be that good on a 45 year old car.

So by and large my take on it is we love the 6 (and rest of them) cuz of what they are but as Denis says changing them too much risks losing the “authenticity of a traditional Classic car”

I suppose you could take a 6 (or any TR) and with enough cash you could whack an AMG M133 4cylinder turbo in the front (360bhp), build custom suspension picked up on new points on a new custom designed and built lightweight tubular chassis and marry that to an alloy and carbon fibre TR body, complete with airbags, PAS, ABS, ESP and even an autonomous city braking system. Kind of like the thing Eagle when they sell you a zero mile updated E-type for £500,000 plus.

Not my cup of tea, but the thing we must all remember is it’s the owner’s car to do what they fancy with, as long as that’s within the legislative framework ruling at the time.

Keith

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Hmmm it’s always a difficult one and I guess I’ll get shot down in flames for saying this.

Firstly we buy a classic car, I assume not because they are cheap, but because we like something about the sense of uniqueness of owning one, whether it’s the history, style, performance or feel even some long ago memories of a specific model or marque of car.

After all if someone just wants a nice reliable comfy convertible there are plenty of MX5’s about at less than 10k for cars that have only just had their first MOT, so probably comfier, easier to live with, significantly safer and still fun.

And don’t get me wrong I’m no specification pedant, there are modifications which make sense, especially if you go racing or hill climbing, they are period or if original specification or quality parts are no longer available but as Denis says sliding splines and UJ’s work within limitations but they are between 40 and 50 years old now and will have to be maintained or replaced so a bit like the rest of our cars, they need a bit of looking after. I don’t think modern service intervals of 20k plus would be that good on a 45 year old car.

So by and large my take on it is we love the 6 (and rest of them) cuz of what they are but as Denis says changing them too much risks losing the “authenticity of a traditional Classic car”

I suppose you could take a 6 (or any TR) and with enough cash you could whack an AMG M133 4cylinder turbo in the front (360bhp), build custom suspension picked up on new points on a new custom designed and built lightweight tubular chassis and marry that to an alloy and carbon fibre TR body, complete with airbags, PAS, ABS, ESP and even an autonomous city braking system. Kind of like the thing Eagle when they sell you a zero mile updated E-type for £500,000 plus.

Not my cup of tea, but the thing we must all remember is it’s the owner’s car to do what they fancy with, as long as that’s within the legislative framework ruling at the time.

 

Keith

 

Keith, I take your point but it was a bad design to start off with and was for a TR4 IRS and not a TR6 or Stag. As I have already pointed out look, at the Jaguar Design, you will see what I mean. Triumph was part of the JRT Group of BL when the TR6 was being produced and BL were on the rationalisation route of parts then, its a pity that this design was not included, as GKN invented the CV drive shaft for the Austin Mini, for another BL company! Lastly I do not consider the original design now safe and the car becoming a 3 wheeler in order to keep the authenticity of a traditional Classic car!

 

Bruce.

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Bruce,

 

And i accept what you say.

 

After all its your car and you are fully entitled to improve it as you decide in line with modern technology.

 

But, and there is always one but isn't there. I personally would not buy a new car without ESP, ABS, Airbags (the more the merrier) adaptive cruise control and AEB (autonomous braking, where research by Euro NCAP and Australasian NCAP shows a 38% reduction in real-world rear-end crashes.) purely for the safety aspects.

 

But should we go this route with ours cars? And remember my 72 TR6 with front disc brakes almost certainly is safer than a 1939 MG TA in the braking department, but there is a fine line between the odd minor chnage and shoving every available update at a 45 year old car.

 

Although with recent announcements from Volvo and the rumours from the new French Govt we may have to install electric motors. :(

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HI Steve,

 

I agree with you about the transformation in the way the car dives and the rear suspension works as it should! My Limora were a new Mk2 version of there original design rated at 300BHP. They supplied an instruction booklet with them which basically described what I have explained in my previous thread #19.

 

Bruce.

 

 

Ahh! Got you. Thanks for clarifying Bruce. I wasn't aware there was a later, uprated version of the shafts.

 

I usually like things pretty standard (I've returned the car to 165 tyres and factory exhaust manifold and system for example) but the thought of a shaft breaking again is just something I can't entertain. It was a horrible experience. But even without the relative fragility the spline-lock is just a nasty characteristic in my opinion.

 

Cheers

 

Steve

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