New -replacement oil pump TR4A Caution!

[Marksteam!]

In the process of doing a full engine overhaul of my TR4A and among all the other bits I ordered a new oil pump as I would do normally with such an overhaul. The new pump on inspection looked to be the same in all aspects but the "Made in India" label on the box did not fill me with confidence having experienced motor cycle parts made in India which all had to be de-burred etc and made from questionable materials! The bottom casing of the pump is secured with equivalent metric set screws. On inspection of the inlet pump end there was fragile cast iron burrs on the edge of the machined face at the inlet port. These readily came away with a gentle prod with a finger nail! Obviously these bits won't get past the filter but are likely to cause some damage to or potentially seize the pump. Largest particle was about 1/8 x 1/16 x 1/32" with several like grains of sand! The quality of the casting in terms of finish particularly in the inlet port is poor. The rest of the pump would seem to be satisfactory but minor blemishes on both rotors caused by handling during the manufacturing process are evident. In the event I've fully measured and inspected both the new and original and have opted to refit the original as its condition is as good if not better than the new and always worked well!

Just a note of caution! If fitting a pump made in India strip it before you fit it! I hope this is of potential assistance as the thought of the oil pump failing when you have just done a full rebuild just doesn't bear thinking about!

Edited May 28, 2017 by Marksteam!

[ed_h]

Similar story on a TR6 pump. I ended up using a hybrid of old and new.

 

Some pics here:

 

http://bullfire.net/TR6/TR6-13/TR6-13.html

 

Ed

[dingle]

I noticed that Moss is stocking the rotors for the TR2-4A oil pumps (836-005) for only $23US. Might make rebuilding the original pump a better alternative (even cheaper) than the questionable oil pumps from India. Oddly enough, there isn't a listing for TR6 oil pumps in the current Moss flyer. Maybe they are searching for a better source.

Berry

[Nigel Triumph]

It's the same with some timing chains too. Made in India, and the outside of the links are rough enough to eat into the tensioner.

 

Nigel

[littlejim]

During the 4A refurb I needed an extra vice to mount at right angles to the main one for special jobs.

The main hardware store had Indian made ones just the right size at a low price.

The one I bought lasted two goes before the thread chewed off the shaft the handle turns. The consistency of the thread was about that of chilled camembert.

I took it back to the store to alert them of the problem. They showed no interest in taking them off sale, so I left the bits in a prominent spot in the vice display, and went and bought a better quality one at the tool store.

Edited May 29, 2017 by littlejim

[boxofbits]

If the casting is poor I wouldn't want to risk fitting it. A smaller fragment than the piece you described will help start to run your bearings.

 

Here is a good article on checking and refacing an original pump if of interest.

 

http://tr6.danielsonfamily.org/OilPump.htm

 

Kevin

[monty]

Why do we not buy essentials like his from the people that race, rally or have built these cars for years? I am thinking of the likes of TR Enterprises, Revingtons etc. If we buy from suppliers who get this c..p from India then we are surely asking for trouble?

Cheers.

[BrianC]

Monty's point is valid and I do exactly that. However, not everything 'Made in India' is rubbish. It is down to suppliers to check or specify the quality when buying or requisitioning manufacture of products and components. If the emphasis is on price, then rubbish will be the result. Doubtless even the trusted suppliers have some items from India, but I would expect them to have established that the quality is satisfactory.

[RogerH]

Hi Folks,

Indeed India is capable of very good work and at a very reasonable price.

Sadly many importers/wholesalers want cheap and it gets into the system.

 

Speaking to one well respected person from one of the big TR spares suppliers he stated if they didn;t have cheap stuff people would simply buy it were it is sold and the big supplier becomes a small supplier over night.

 

It is often stated on this forum that one would be prepared to pay more for better spares - so how come all the suppliers have stocks of cheap iffy items.

If nobody bought it then good stuff may take its place.

 

Rant over - back to sleep.

 

Roger

[Marksteam!]

Roger makes a valid point but we as mere consumers have no easy way to determine if the component material spec, dimensions, tolerances and hardness specifications etc are meeting or exceeding Triumph's original specification. Might be useful to fellow owners if a list of manufactures of critical components were to be generated with relevant comments?

ie. Part:- Oil pump, Mfr :- Country, Comment:- Dismantle and inspect before use. known issues with ports not being de-burred after manufacture.

 

On a related note the new timing chain supplied is also made in India by "Rolon" Anybody had experience good or bad with this mfr?

 

On yet another related note the new timing chain tensioner is made from a single leaf/blade of spring steel but the original tensioner seemed to be made with dual parts one a spring and the other a wear plate?

I'm not intending to thrash the car but I have been known to drive spiritedly and my annual mileage will be low so on balance I would struggle to justify rally spec parts so would look to buy sound replacements of a similar spec to the originals.

 

Just done some trawling on the web and found this forum http://speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=34305 I don't think I'll be fitting the Rolon chain!

Edited May 30, 2017 by Marksteam!

[ed_h]

Another case in point. This is what I found inside my brand new rocker shaft.

 

Ed

 

[iain]

[RogerH]

 

 

On a related note the new timing chain supplied is also made in India by "Rolon" Anybody had experience good or bad with this mfr?

 

Just done some trawling on the web and found this forum http://speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=34305 I don't think I'll be fitting the Rolon chain!

 

Hi Mark,

many posters on this forum agree that the German chain is a far better product and not too expensive.

Feel the link edges of a cheap chain compared to the German version and you will see why the tensioner suffers so much.

 

Roger

[Marksteam!]

Thanks Roger,

I'm intending to buy the HD timing chain offered by Moss as a replacement for the new Rolon chain. Is this the German chain you are referring to as their on line catalogue does not specify make? To date I've had no issue with other engine parts supplied by Moss. Their parts seem of good quality. Are there other suppliers out there I should consider?

I've had a good look at the Rolon chain and was surprised at the amount of twist or bend possible that I assume is the amount of effective clearance between the links and roller pins although the finish of the links seems ok. The amount of "play" in the Rolon chain will also have a detrimental effect on the sprockets accelerating tooth wear.

 

Regards

Mark

 

PS Anybody interested in crossing my palm with silver for a new in the box Rolon chain? Going cheap!

[JohnG]

I refer you to John Ruskin;

 

It's unwise to pay too much, but it's worse to pay too little.

When you pay too much, you lose a little money – that is all.

When you pay too little, you sometimes lose everything, because the thing you bought was incapable of doing the thing it was bought to do.

The common law of business balance prohibits paying a little and getting a lot – it can't be done. If you deal with the lowest bidder, it is well to add something for the risk you run, and if you do that you will have enough to pay for something better.

 

Also;

There is hardly anything in the world that someone cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price alone are that person's lawful prey.

 

Sounds trite, but, so true

[TRseks]

It is often hard to identify why a part is much better than the bad part other than the price. The suppliers should be better to inform what they are selling, where it is made, why this particular part I better than the cheap part. Usually the only info you get is a picture and the price, not enough!

 

If people get enough information I think the better parts will sell much more.

 

If a supplier sells an oil pump for 50-100% more than the cheap, badly made oil pump but explains why it is better I think most people will fork out the extra money, who will risk the whole engine just because you want to save maybe a few £10'ers on an oil pump? I suspect not many...

 

 

Magnus

Edited June 1, 2017 by TRseks

[foster461]

Many of us have been victims of these crap oil pumps. It should serve as a warning to anyone buying a new TR2-TR6 oil pump that you MUST take it apart, de-burr the casting, flush out all the crap that was left in there and verify that the rotor is pinned to the shaft.

[YankeeTR5]

To Magnus' point - The Roadster Factory's owner does a very good job in his catalogues on explaining why two of the same component from two different vendors are offered at two different prices. Sometimes I've felt that its the "art of persuasion" but mostly its offering his customers a choice between what he perceives as an acceptable level of quality at a lower price point against a superior quality part at a premium price. He seems to do a good business so perhaps the point is true.....

[Ian Vincent]

FWIW I have s new TR Shop oil pump bought a couple of years ago and it seems to work and keeps the pressure up better than th original item it replaced.

 

Rgds Ian

[RogerH]

FWIW I have s new TR Shop oil pump bought a couple of years ago and it seems to work and keeps the pressure up better than th original item it replaced.

 

Rgds Ian

+1

 

Roger

[qkingston]

When refitting the oil pump spindle and rotor, should the rotor be packed with vaseline or just left to prime itself when the engine is eventually turned over? I remember having to do that on a Rover V8 oil pump

David 

[RogerH]

Hi David,

I have heard that before but don;t fully understand the logic.

The pump will be immersed in the oil in the sump and so the internal cavity should be full.  So where is the benefit of the Vaseline/grease!!

When it starts to spin it will push the oil out and suck new oil in.

Spinning the engine with no spark plugs in should fill all the oil ways with in a shortish time.

 

Roger

[RobH]

That measure is only necessary for older cars (generally 1930s and older) where the oil pump is not submerged but has to suck oil up from the sump, which only works if there is no air in the system. The grease allows the pump to suck and prime itself, otherwise you have to find away to back-fill it to achieve priming. 

[qkingston]

thank you for the replies, I thought that was probably the case. I think the Rover V8 was prone to priming issues when re-installed, I recall it was something that was frequently mentioned

Rgds

David

[Andy Moltu]

The 6 cylinder oil pumps may sometimes not self prime so it is worth making sure that they are pre lubricated either by using something like vaseline or better lubriplate which is intended for the purpose - slighty thinner than vaseline.

An alternative option is to remove the oil PRVand squirt half a pint of oil down the orifice immediately prior to starting.

Not all expensive parts are good and not all those that are cheap are rubbish and will oil pumps it is worth examining before fitting. Sometimes they are the same item.

For the 6 cylinder cars I think Chris Witor sells a bluprinted pump.  What he does is not clear but presumably checks the tolorances and machines those that aren't but can be corrected.

Contrary to popular belief you can re-use the original oil pump if it is in good nick so inspect the one you remove and if it good keep it and consider getting minor intolerances machined to return to tolerance.