LED

[Bill Bourne]

I think that Paul's thread would have to be tested in court if there are anomalies which have duel or unclear meanings? But it seems surprising that AR Action prints this acritical and then allows a company to advertise LED bulbs as the current situation is not clear cut! I agree with the point that the TR Insurance should be asked for their opinion.

Does this also make my headlights illegal as I have had halogen bulbs for the last 30 + years, instead of sealed beam units, which were the original units? This is where the Register s/b dealing directly with FBHVC to canvass HMG to sort this out, we have left the EU I think????????

 

Bruce.

Then it begs the question/s - if anything fitted is not as per the factory standard ? which I assume would have to have been legally compliant at the time - are we all running our cars illegally and undermining our insurance cover ? I think not - common sense I think would prevail. Just declare the mods to your insurance company. Then they will either decline or take on the risk.

Bill

[RogerH]

Hi Folks,

I don;t think anybody has cop'd out.

Wayne has produced an article that takes in comment from the law, people who know the law (ish) and debunked some older writings.

The fact that the written law is a bit woolly is leaving us all in limbo.

 

Accepting that these lighting laws are retrospective doesn't fit in with previous new laws - seat belts are not retrospective.

 

However is the problem being 'retrospective' or the wording regarding these 'E' marks.

 

I think the FBHVC need to seek proper legal advice to make sure the laws are being understood correctly.

If it turns out that ther law forbids these bulbs then the classic car industry need to lobby the law makers to get it sorted.

 

Roger

[Alec Pringle]

We have not left the EU, and those of our laws devolving from EU membership will obtain until such time as we do finally leave.

 

The so-called Great Repeal may well remove some of the detailed technical regulations, but in this instance the UK was a prime mover in moving forward the EU statutes which led to the 1989 Regulations . . . . as we have been in so many areas relating to motor vehicles.

 

As a motor factor in the 1990s I was keenly aware of the provisions of these regulations and how they affected the business that I managed. The wording was more than clear enough at the time, and seemed adequate to take into account foreseeable developments.

 

The exponents of LED lighting have chosen to interpret the 1989 regs in a fashion which seems extraordinary to someone who had to deal with their implementation back in the day. . . . . or maybe these guys simply chose to ignore the law altogether ?

 

Marks awarded to Wayne and his team for clarifying what should have been painfully obvious in the first place.

 

Cheers

 

Alec

[Cew]

Judging by the amount of vehicles using UK roads with defective lighting ,headlights ,sidelights tail lights and/or brake lights, that I see on a daily basis this is a bit of a storm in a tea cup. Construction & use regulations are a veritable minefield and any DVSA/VOSA official worth his salt can ALWAYS find something wrong should he/she wish to.

Edited April 20, 2017 by Cew

[monty]

Judging by the amount of vehicles using UK roads with defective lighting ,headlights ,sidelights tail lights and/or brake lights, that I see on a daily basis this is a bit of a storm in a tea cup. Construction & use regulations are a veritable minefield and any DVSA/VOSA official worth his salt can ALWAYS find something wrong should he/she wish to.

Agreed but it is the insurance aspect that is more concern to me. A fine I can live with!

[Ragtag]

 

A wise man assumes that if the regs do not explicitly say that you can, then by implication you cannot.

 

 

By 'regs' I assume you mean Laws and in this country (unlike other European countries that subscribe to the Napoleonic tradition) the 'wise man' is safe to assume that everything is legal unless it is specifically illegal. It is a fundamental principle of Common Law.

[ShaunC]

What about HID's for glare and dazzle?

 

And how many Triumph users have linked out the crazy 'night dimming relay' which intentionally dropped the intensity of the brake lights and indicators when the side lights were on (e.g. on the Stag)?

[Ragtag]

 

Aftermarket LED bulbs (that are not supplied within a complete purpose designed and type approved light unit with housing, connections and lenses) are illegal for use on the public road. The law, when you look into it is actually pretty clear.

 

 

Really?

 

Which law specifically prohibits the use of LED lights on a vehicle first used before 1986? The Road Vehicle Lighting Regulations 1989 don't appear to.

 

Filament lamps

 

14.—(1) Where a motor vehicle first used on or after 1st April 1986 or any trailer manufactured on or after 1st October 1985 is equipped with any lamp of a type that is required by any Schedule to these Regulations to be marked with an approval mark, no filament lamp other than a filament lamp referred to in the Designation of Approval Marks Regulations in–

 

(a)regulation 4 and Schedule 2, items 2 or 2A, 8, 20, 37 or 37A; or

 

(regulation 5 and Schedule 4, item 18,

shall be fitted to any such lamp.

[Cew]

Agreed but it is the insurance aspect that is more concern to me. A fine I can live with!

Quite , and this is something that does need clarification. As insurance companies will usually try and minimise their liability in any way they can, and this includes changing the colour of a vehicle as a "modification" , a test case in a court is probably the only way this can happen.

What are the measures used for "too bright" anyway?, we must have all sat at traffic lights behind the driver with his foot on the brake pedal (when did that become normal?) with umpteen high density brake lights blazing.

[signalredshaker]

LED's fitted and working as far as stop/tail and sidelights goes and bright, distinguishable between types and generally good quality. For a dynamo user (TR4) and non-hard shoulder, "Smart (classic car suicidal) motorway" user I consider them much safer than filament bulbs.

As soon as I saw Wayne Scott's article, I did panic somewhat and wrote to my insurers. Below is the reply.

 

"Good Morning,

 

Thank you for your email,

 

As previously discussed I can confirm that fitting LED bulbs and hazard flashing lights to your vehicle will not affect your premium.

 

These improvements to your vehicle have been noted on your policy.

 

Thank you for letting us know with the upgrades you are making to your vehicle.

 

Kind regards,

 

Sean.

 

Sean Reilly | Insurance Advisor

Footman James

Castlegate House

Castlegate Way

Castlegate Business Park

Dudley

DY1 4TA

 

Telephone: 0333 207 6130

Email: sean.reilley@footmanjames.co.uk"

 

Note the words "improvements" and "upgrades".

I'm sticking.

As far as indicators and hazard switch and associated electronics obtained from a TRAction advertising LED supplier is concerned- so far, after around 3 months of trouble- Rubbish! Sorry, expensive rubbish.

 

James

 

 

[Grahamgl]

I wrote to the TR Register insurance people asking the same question, still awaiting a response. When it has been received I will post it here.

Graham

[derek H]

I had this conversation with our Insurance Administrators current scheme manager regarding LED external lighting earlier in the week. Wayne and I also had a meeting with the office manager, our new scheme administrator and their market manager yesterday. The LED subject amongest other subjects was brought up again and following discussions I have been informed that they are awaiting the official response from the insurance provider. Their reply will be passed on to the members as soon as we have the information. I personally have alway considered it important that i inform my insurance provider with any and all alterations to my vehicle from standard how ever minor.

Derek

Edited April 22, 2017 by derek H

[Dave Ashworth]

Dear Sean, (Signalredshaker)

 

The letter from your insurance company states that your 'premium' will not be affected. It doesn't say anywhere that they accept the legality of the bulbs.

 

The only way one finds out the real answer to this is when the wriggling begins after a claim.

 

All the best.

 

Dave.

[signalredshaker]

With a letter like that I would have no trouble standing in front of a judge to argue the case.

I am pretty sure that, as an official response it does mean what it says and not something else, despite the propensity of insurers to "wriggle". I am viewing it as an implicit agreement for me to take the action I have done and continue with my insurance agreement and I don't think it can be read any other way to be honest.

As said, I'm sticking.

James

[Guest ntc]

Try if the worst happens the police will inspect the car and you will be sh!! street.

[Geko]

Not saying that this is the ultimate but quite comprehensive and thoroughly documented. Also not equivocal I should think....

[DaveN]

If they're going to ban led lamps in our old cars I reckon there's a good case for banning them totally. All these gimmicky day time running lights and blinding white headlamps that dazzle oncoming traffic.....and don't even get started on the latest b******s, head lights that turn themselves off when going round a corner or spotlights that come on when going round a corner!! What's that all about.? They'll even be fitting indicators on BMWs next. ..mine had them as an optional extra!

[Lebro]

Not saying that this is the ultimate but quite comprehensive and thoroughly documented. Also not equivocal I should think....

This article is about headlamps.

 

Bob

[BlueTR3A-5EKT]

We're doomed Captain Mainwaring, doomed I say.....

[Lebro]

Don't panic

[TR5tar]

Although a fine would be a pain, like others have said, it's no big deal. It's the insurance issue that is the worry, but until we hear from our insurers it's all just conjecture.

[PhilipB]

It’s quite clear that fitting LED bulbs to our cars is illegal. I would not want to take the word of an insurance adviser in the customer service department, I think a claims department might have a more focussed opinion on it and in any event, it’s for the courts to decide what complies with the law.

 

This article seems to sum it up, note the reference to “where an insurance company turned down a claim, because a rear number-plate bulb was fitted with an LED conversion bulb”

 

https://www.motoringassist.com/motoring-advice/news/gems-latest-research-on-illegal-car-bulbs/

 

I currently have LED brake and tail lights fitted (in the hope that they stand out better against modern lights, which are predominantly LED) but they are about to be changed

 

Has anyone tried this type of bulb which is a 21W/5W filament bulb and which are claimed to be 20% brighter?

 

http://www.autobulbsdirect.co.uk/380-Ring-Rapid-Response-P21/5W-Stop-and-Tail-RW380LL.html

[Bob Horner]

There is always a danger in reading an article as a lay person and concluding that something is or is not illegal. I have no axe to grind either way but it is often the case that people tend towards the "can't do it" than the "can". Years of soaking up the european ethos rather than prinicples of common law tend towards this conclusion - as well as a general attraction towards the sky is falling school of thought in most people. The only answer is to get a definitive legal opinion on the position (ideally paid for by someone else as noted by Roger above). Even reading the legislation itself can be misleading in that sections are often disapplied by other sections and without reading the whole act you cannot be certain (ie cars built on or after certain dates etc - which seems to have been mentioned above and may or may not negate the seemingly definitive article provided by PhiipB). Personally I would be worried about writing an article without counsel's opinion that declared such bulbs to be illegal. If the unsupported opinion in an article turned out to be incorrect, that person or institution could be open to legal action - particularly if it severely damaged the trade of a legitimate business by claiming falsely they are breaking the law!! Perhaps we can look to Better Car Lighting to fully explain the legal position as their trade seems to depend on it?

 

Bob

Edited April 24, 2017 by Bob Horner

[Lebro]

Philip.

 

Have you studied the Road Vehicle Lighting Regulations, 1989 ?

 

Re exemptions for older cars?

 

Bob.

[PhilipB]

Philip.

 

Have you studied the Road Vehicle Lighting Regulations, 1989 ?

 

Re exemptions for older cars?

 

Bob.

 

Bob

No I haven't, has Wayne and the people he has sought advice from??

I'd be grateful if you will spare me (and others) the search and point us to the specific section(s) of the RVLR 1989 that permits the fitting of LED bulbs to standard Lucas light fittings.

I would agree that LED bulbs, if properly specified, offer significant advantages over filament bulbs but I would like to be able to quote chapter and verse to MOT station, police, insurance company or court if challenged.

 

Phil