Urgent High Torque Starter fitting question

[oldtuckunder]

High folks anyone out there with experience of fitting an HT starter?

 

Courier just delivered new HT starter at 5 pm, magic 5 min job to fit and I can get this rebuilt engine started!

 

6pm Hum not sure about this and of course supplier and manufacturer shut so can't phone.

 

I've got the correct model for the car Vitesse/GT6 and its fits nicely everything lines up, have the fitting instructions which cover replacing both Pre-Engage and Bendix (Inertia). I'm replacing an Inertia starter.

 

However the original Inertia Starter on the Vitesse is mounted on a 10mm thick spacer that in effect moves the starter away from the engine mounting plate and this pulls the bendix gear 10mm in towards the flywheel.

 

Do I use the spacer or not?

 

Reasonably obvious that I cant fit it without as one the threaded section on the captive bolt on the starter isn't long enough to tighten but the overall bolt length is too long, also a quick measurement shows that the drive gear in the starter would be constantly engaged by 2mm with the flywheel, which can't be right?

 

OK fit the spacer then! but hang on if I fit the 10mm spacer the gear at rest will well clear the flywheel, but when the gear is extended it will only engage the flywheel teeth by about 5-6mm i.e. about half width.

 

Not happy with that. Drawing below shows my conundrum if I'm right I need a 5mm thick spacer to have the teeth fully engaged when starting.

 

Now I could bolt it up as is and I think it would work, but fairly sure 6-12 months down the line I'll find the leading edge of the flywheel teeth stripping from the small contact area.

 

Am I right or am I just being over cautious? Don't mind machining down the spacer this evening if it solves the problem, just needed some sage input before starting.

 

Alan

 

[ChrisR-4A]

Hi although I can't help with the problem I can suggest have you tried another Forum which deals with your actual car. It may not be same as TR 2-6

Chris

[Nigel Triumph]

Fitted a high torque starter to my GT6 a few years ago, and I think it retained the spacer. It also had one captive mounting bolt. It worked fine and still does. It was sourced from the TSSC shop.

 

Sorry I can't go out and check for you now, I'm 150 miles away from the car!

 

Can only suggest you contact the supplier.

 

Nigel

[oldtuckunder]

Fitted a high torque starter to my GT6 a few years ago, and I think it retained the spacer. It also had one captive mounting bolt. It worked fine and still does. It was sourced from the TSSC shop.

 

 

Yes this is the identical one to the TSSC supplied one, which is also why I'm perplexed as nobody else seems to have noticed this (well according to google anyway)

 

Alan

[Nigel Triumph]

For the avoidance of doubt, the starter I fitted was branded Powerlite.

 

Nigel

[oldtuckunder]

For the avoidance of doubt, the starter I fitted was branded Powerlite.

 

Nigel

 

This one is also and the same Kit/Part number as the TSSC one.

 

A bit of further digging has turned up a couple of people who when fitting left the spacer off and were attune enough to spot that the gears were in constant mesh, I suspect many others didn't/haven't and wondered at some point later why the first 2mm of either the ring gear or starter gear were worn away, or why the hight torque starter didn't last that long?

 

Also found two references (in the whole of google) to people who spotted that using the standard spacer means that the gears only mesh for about 6mm and thus machined the spacer (as I pondered) down to 5mm. I suspect most people just fitted with spacer and because it engaged and worked thought it is fine.

 

So my big question now is am I and the other two that spotted it correct that the starter gear and the ring gear should fully engage not just partially?

 

Alan

[GT6M]

Ello Alan , On me own, I had to fit 2, 1 mm shims

same type as on OE starter

this was cos it wer touching ring gear at rest

 

blued the teeth wid copious amounts of Dykum,

and its touching perfect when in crank pos

 

No too familiar wid the TSSC,n so really cant help in your case

 

BUTT, some good info for ye here

suggest ye read an digest, or ye will ev bother, lots of bother !!!

 

AND, turn the Solonoid connecter 180degs

this way, the crimp an wire dont get fired oft ex mani.

 

https://club.triumph.org.uk/cgi-bin/forum10/Blah.pl?m-1455479990/

 

 

 

M

[oldtuckunder]

Good post, good link, thanks, a couple of things to sort when fitting.

 

So as with my calcs 2mm would just pull the starter gear clear of the ring gear. Somewhere I have a batch of the old OE shims if I can find them, which would do the job, or I machine down the solid spacer.

 

As its too late to complete the job tonight :-( I will hang on and speak to Powerlite in the morning and ask why this problem exits on an item designed as a direct replacement, or actually not that the issue exists but why they don't highlight it. I suspect the major problem is that far too many people just don't notice and report the problem.

 

Alan

[oldtuckunder]

Well fitted and works, so it was just the old starter groaning its last, guess new rings and new shells were just too much for it.

 

Spoke to Powerlite this morning, admission that the instructions should be better and that they should highlight that if there was a spacer used with the old starter the HT replacement requires one as well. On the engagement depth (with spacer fitted) their opinion is that 5-6 mm of teeth engagement was very adequate and that on some installations as little as 2-3mm works well. Assured that if there is any wear it will be on the starter gear not the ring gear, so I will pull it for a look at the end of the season and take a look whilst its still in warranty :-). To be honest I was't sure I 100% believed them so as I could I popped the spacer in the lathe and took 2mm of it to give me 7-8 mm of engagement. If I do get a mid season problem with gear wear and am in a rush for a fix I can always remove and skim a few more mm off the spacer.

 

Another of those instances where just an extra paragraph in the instructions could have made it a non issue.

 

Anyway engine running, now to finish getting the car ready for Gurston.

 

Alan

 

NB. Marcus as there is a chance (hopefully slim) that I may want to return under warranty, i decided that taking it apart to turn the link wire around might be a problem, but agree that it could be affected by heat from the 6 branch, so made up an insulating shield out of exhaust wrap to sit between the starter and the manifold, hopefully will do the trick. When its out of warranty I will pop the cover off and turn it around. Again its one of those things that when you look at it, you think why don't they make it like that in the first place.

[GT6M]

Its meb,e obvious to some of us, but for the majority,it aint.

cos maybe they dont think that there is an exhaust pipe an inch or so away frae the end

 

Another thing that ye gotta be carefull aboot

is when yer tightening the main feed wire nut up,

 

Wot hapens is that nut goes onto a stud, that stud is fitted aroond a bakerlite / plastic plate,

{ which can, and does brek into bits }

which inturn is fitted / connected to the base plate contact.

So, if the stud turns a wee bit, then the innards turn wid it

 

this then puts the contact bits, which the solonoid plunger end contacks

oot of line, so its just mek,n contack on a point,instead of all over.

 

and in time, it burns the area away, EVEN though the plunger bit revolves around

as it contacks every time its used

 

it gets a burned ring roond it

this then stops the contact being made, an it wont turn over

just clik cliks away

 

Need to really tighten it up, use a loctite, { as ye tighten, it moves, so gotta set it to one side, so it comes back into line when tightened, follow,!! }

and also blue the smaller contacks, this so that ye can see if they match onto the main plunger

this t,mek sure its sitting flat, an mek,n a good contact.

Even after all this, it still burns the contacts in time !!!

 

this,ll all become so clear when ye gotta start fix,n it,!!!

 

Ive had endless troubles wid this thingy, right frae the very start

 

Note, If it does stik noo an then, then the 3 end screws can be took of in situ,

and the plunger pulled oot t,clean the burn marks of on the outer ring oft plunger

and can, wid the use of a mirror, clean the base contaks wid a small flate blade screwdriver,

it,ll get ye going

or just bump it,!!!!

 

M

[stuart]

Its meb,e obvious to some of us, but for the majority,it aint.

cos maybe they dont think that there is an exhaust pipe an inch or so away frae the end

 

Another thing that ye gotta be carefull aboot

is when yer tightening the main feed wire nut up,

 

Wot hapens is that nut goes onto a stud, that stud is fitted aroond a bakerlite / plastic plate,

{ which can, and does brek into bits }

which inturn is fitted / connected to the base plate contact.

So, if the stud turns a wee bit, then the innards turn wid it

 

this then puts the contact bits, which the solonoid plunger end contacks

oot of line, so its just mek,n contack on a point,instead of all over.

 

and in time, it burns the area away, EVEN though the plunger bit revolves around

as it contacks every time its used

 

it gets a burned ring roond it

this then stops the contact being made, an it wont turn over

just clik cliks away

 

Need to really tighten it up, use a loctite, { as ye tighten, it moves, so gotta set it to one side, so it comes back into line when tightened, follow,!! }

and also blue the smaller contacks, this so that ye can see if they match onto the main plunger

this t,mek sure its sitting flat, an mek,n a good contact.

Even after all this, it still burns the contacts in time !!!

 

this,ll all become so clear when ye gotta start fix,n it,!!!

 

Ive had endless troubles wid this thingy, right frae the very start

 

Note, If it does stik noo an then, then the 3 end screws can be took of in situ,

and the plunger pulled oot t,clean the burn marks of on the outer ring oft plunger

and can, wid the use of a mirror, clean the base contaks wid a small flate blade screwdriver,

it,ll get ye going

or just bump it,!!!!

 

M

Or get your original starter properly rebuilt, they do work very well.

Stuart.

[GT6M]

Or get your original starter properly rebuilt, they do work very well.

Stuart.

 

Cant, cos OE starter will no spin a HC 2.5, just groaned, till it would groan ne moer.

and a 2.5 starter wont fit,cos of the mani,

hence im stuk with this modern

 

the OE 2.5 starter fitted with a diff mani, but not wid one I got on noo

 

M