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Highly illegal


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They are everywhere, there was a stall selling a TR 4 V55 and supporting bits at the Triumph and MG spares day on Sunday.

 

Mick Richards

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"Project" ha ha! I think I'll email him and ask if it can be towed home or if I need to bring a trailer :D

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Sorry Neil, it was a sign on an unmanned table with a copy of the V55 (reg number redacted) advertised on an A4 sheet in plastic envelope alongside another busy set of tables in the 2nd hall. I asked for the stallholder on the alongside tables and got the "haven't seen him for 30 mins reply", I called back a couple of hours later and the table was still unmanned so no follow up possible.

 

Mick Richards

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Sorry Neil, it was a sign on an unmanned table with a copy of the V55 (reg number redacted) advertised on an A4 sheet in plastic envelope alongside another busy set of tables in the 2nd hall. I asked for the stallholder on the alongside tables and got the "haven't seen him for 30 mins reply", I called back a couple of hours later and the table was still unmanned so no follow up possible.

 

Mick Richards

Thanks Mick

There was many members there,name and shame if they do not have the b!!! I will.Someone must know?

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Undesirable, open to fraud, theft,... etc but not illegal.

 

So I have a crappy rust bucket RHD TR6 with a V5, I buy a rebuilt chassis, and a sound ex USA body shell and proceed to build myself a TR6 from new & sh parts, is that illegal, and what can I claim it is when its finished.

 

Only playing devils advocate, but a lot of valuable classics have been built from little more.

 

Imagine if that was a discarded rusty series 1 RHD e-type body shell but with a V5, £20K?

 

Alan

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I thought there was some sort of points system where for example, the original chassis was 5 points, engine 3 points, body tub 4, gearbox 2 etc etc. in order for the car to be deemed original and therefore retain its number plate it had to have a certain amount of points otherwise it went on a Q plate? How this can be proved I know not? I suppose someone would need to be honest in the first place?

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Stolen car + log book + new number plates + bulkhead plate + MOT means that a big profit for the crook.

 

No one in their right mind is going to rebuild that chassis, new shell and all the running gear and so on.

 

I doubt the chassis even belongs to the documents and is a picture just to provide pseudo legitimacy. Might be wrong and a very naive seller is wondering why his pile of scrap is getting so many bids!

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Agreed it's pandering to thieves, but is it illegal? The chap may have some photographs of the complete car to back up his claims, plus how much of a complete vehicle to you need to keep its identity, so what if the only salvageable bit is a bit of wheel arch with the plate on or a bit of bulkhead?...... or for later ones a bit of the B post?

After all you can 'rebuild' a war bird with nothing at all except the data plate!

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Hi Dave,

yes it is illegal. As stated previously there is a points system whereby too few points mean you don't have the original car and that something is afoot.

I don't know if it is official but has been quoted many times previously.

 

But clearly the obvious use for this would be to validate a stolen car. Easily done.

 

Roger

 

https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-registration/radically-altered-vehicles

Edited by RogerH
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In my world, this is just a chap selling his chassis and UK log book, backed up with heritage certificate !!!!!

 

Ask him and see...

 

If a crook fancies it and wants to go to the trouble of a total rebuild, he must be Mad.

Enjoy the sunny weather,

Conrad.

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The DVLA are now much more astute now as they have a team working on this issue, when issuing age related or original number plates. Proof/History/Authentication has to be supplied before they will issue any docs. Many of the other car /motor cycle clubs are directly involved in this procedure, as they have original records and experts? in that mark, but the TR Register does not seem to be in this loop?

 

I have indirect experience of the DVLA in action on this subject where one of their investigators showed up on a friends door step along with the police and impounded his vehicle and he was arrested and taken to the police station for interview. He had applied for a V5 to re-register and ask if he could have the original number plate. But DVLA had already re- issued that number 20+years previous, on the same make and model with the same serial numbers up in Yorkshire to a different person and he was in Surrey. So one was a ringer and they were trying to work out which? The case is still active?

 

Bruce.

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I can't see any reason why you would sell a chassis with a log book, other than to ring a car.

If all you have left is the rotten chassis after flogging all the rest of the parts, you've scrapped the car and it should be recorded as such. If you re-chassied your own car because it was rotten, you wouldn't need the log book - it would keep it's own registration plate.

 

It's not a case of the trader "just" selling his chassis, he's actively encouraging this sort of thing. I wouldn't buy anything from him on principle even if it meant keeping my car off the road. if you trade with these people you encourage them.

 

Dodgy as................

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Here you go, some names to contact at the DVLA -

 

https://insidedvla.blog.gov.uk/2015/05/29/behind-the-scenes-with-dvlas-counter-fraud-intelligence-team/

 

I think one of our own may know who he is as well, judging by the sellers last few bits of feedback -

 

http://feedback.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewFeedback2&userid=vw_golf_club&ftab=AllFeedback

Edited by TR Mitch
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I've heard of famous Racing Cars being built up from less!

 

If the seller did indeed have a rusted out car and it's documentation, then he is entitled to sell any part off as he pleases!

 

Surely it depends where the chassis plate/number resides...on a TR it's on the inner wing, that's the 'CAR' the rest is just parts!

 

e.g. When London Transport used to overhaul their Route Master Buses, the Chassis Plate/Number was on the front Subframe. The entire rest of that Bus ended up on another bus being refurbished, the Body, the Engine and all other mechanicals parts were just that...parts, and the freshly assembled Bus got the Registration number of whatever the bus the front subframe had come from! Drives collectors of RM's potty but there it is!

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If the seller did indeed have a rusted out car and it's documentation, then he is entitled to sell any part off as he pleases!

 

See, I don't understand this attitude. Sell the rusty chassis yes. If someone is desperate enough then that's fine. But the V5 is for a car. A chassis isn't a car - the car has been parted out and no longer exists. It should have been recorded as scrapped.

 

I think anyone with this opinion would change it the moment their own TR got pinched and ringed because someone got hold of a dodgy V5 and a reproduction chassis plate. I think next time they saw a V5 for sale they'd be right p***ed off.

 

I got an iPod Touch nicked from my car about 8 weeks ago - retail price £230 or thereabouts. Last week, the guy that bought it from the Scrote that pinched it from my car called me as I had put it in lost mode. The moment anyone connected it to wifi it would lock up with a message to call me if it was found. I got an email to tell me it had been put in lost mode at 7.54am along with where the iPod was connected to the internet - a local shopping centre in Boscombe (anyone in Bournemouth will recognise this are of town!) where there are loads of shops that unlock mobile phones. So the s**t that now has it has been trying to unlock it (unsuccessfully) and eventually thought he'd call me to sell it back to me. and get his money back. My response was to tell him to enjoy his new brick and maybe he'd learn that buying nicked Apple products was a loser as they can be locked remotely (as I had done). Now I could have paid him the £70 he was asking (rather than buying a replacement for three times the price) but that only teaches him that he can get away with this sort of thing. Maybe I cut my nose off to spite my face but I took a certain satisfaction with knowing he was out of pocket.

 

Same principal with the V5. If people buy them, the sellers will never learn and the thieves will carry on making money at the cost of others.

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Roger's link earlier in this thread relates to radically altered vehicles . . . . .

 

The more likely scenarios from our point of view are

 

Rebuilt vehicles - https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-registration/rebuilt-vehicles

 

or

 

Reconstructed classic vehicles - https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-registration/reconstructed-classic-vehicles

 

In this instance of a V5 c/w scrap chassis, it is impossible to meet the requirements for 'rebuilt vehicle' classification . . . . . and pretty damn difficult to meet those for 'reconstructed classic vehicle' . . . . .

 

'Ringing' need not be just a straightforward identity swap of a stolen car here in the UK.

 

A TR can be stolen in the UK, immediately transported to Europe . . . . and stashed away until an appropriate identity comes along. Registered in one of those EU countries which takes a relaxed attitude to historic vehicle documentation, and then once it's 'legitimised' it can be sold anywhere in the EU.

 

Alternatively an identity is purchased, as in this ebay offering, and then a vehicle matching the id will be stolen to order and whisked overseas as above.

 

Or there's the proverbial import from the USA (or wherever) which arrives in the UK, is rebuilt to rhd, and then cloaked under the identity of a 'genuine UK rhd car', albeit one which many years ago ceased to exist in any meaningful fashion.

 

I hate to think how many ex-USA TRs are running round masquerading as pukka UK cars . . . . . many dozens for certain, and more likely hundreds.

 

As for TRs stolen in the UK and then resurfaced abroad, that's certainly in the dozens too, and possibly 3 figures.

 

One way or another, a potentially profitable exercise, which is why TR identities sell for loadsa money . . . . . .

 

Cheers

 

Alec

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Alec,

 

In this case if one speaks to the DVLA and gives them the details of the E-bay site and they investigate. Then they would withdraw the reg. plate and note the engine number, cancel the V5 even if its non active one on their system. So the value would be massively reduced!

 

I have never done a chassis off restoration on a TR, did GKN ever mark the chassis up with a serial number and if they did where do you look?

 

Bruce.

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Alec,

 

In this case if one speaks to the DVLA and gives them the details of the E-bay site and they investigate. Then they would withdraw the reg. plate and note the engine number, cancel the V5 even if its non active one on their system. So the value would be massively reduced!

 

I have never done a chassis off restoration on a TR, did GKN ever mark the chassis up with a serial number and if they did where do you look?

 

Bruce.

There is no ID on an original chassis more than the series plate on the cross member, Rubery Owen I believe. Malines built cars did have their chassis number stamped on them. However if you have a CTM replacement chassis then they are all numbered.

Stuart.

Edited by stuart
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