malcolm Posted December 20, 2005 Report Share Posted December 20, 2005 I had the service, MOT and a spot of welding done on the V8 track car by Jigsaw Racing in Northampton. I am happy with the job done and cost but appear to have a problem they can't rectify. They report that the rear shoes have been 'cooked' and that they have replaced them with uprated ones. The problem is that the car has too much rear brake bias. There's no clever brake bias adjuster or anything. As far as I can see it's just the standard TR7 set-up, but with 4-pot Princess/Ambassador vented discs on the front. So why would I have a problem? I can actually lock-up the rear brakes (!) which is a first for any TR7 or V8 I've owned and not a good thing.... What can I do?? Malcolm. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
marvmul Posted December 20, 2005 Report Share Posted December 20, 2005 On my TR3, I've used 2 types of u/r brake shoes : I didn't experience any difference in brake bias, not even with the actual carbon/metallic rear brake shoe's from Cambridge Motorsport. I suppose the uprating is about fading, not about the friction rate. Perhaps the brake bias to the rear will be disappear after bedding in. Simply adjusting the shoes will alter the bias also(that's why the left and right rear brakes need to be equally adjusted to make them perform evenly). When the rear brakes perform well, the brake distance will be much shorter : if the front wheels are locking up a little earlier than the rear ones, you can try and see if that bias is dangerous or not. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Cinnobar Posted December 21, 2005 Report Share Posted December 21, 2005 (edited) Its a shame no one answered who knew a TR7! The issue is the PDV, Pressure differential valve, PRV Pressure Reducing Valve or whatever you want to call it has jammed! Mine did this when Robsport rebuilt it, result completely unable to bleed the front brakes as it had seized in the rearward mode. Could also be a dodgy Master cylinder. Also if the shoes are uprated they could seriously unbalance your braking, unless the front matches. Used to get this on race rally cars with disparate lining materials front & back. Eg. VG95 rear lininngs & DS11 pads. Both match, but fit one only to one end & standard the other, you get all manner of problems. As for Alecs comments !!!! How come when it was designed & built, it was subject to some of the rigorous type approval we now have. The rest is total tripe, mine has uprated fronts and has never locked back brakes and rarely locks fronts. And standard ones I've driven are the same. The limiter valve just doesn't permit enough rear line pressure to lock the rears unless knackered. This is the car that road tests of the time complimented on its handling & the only braking criticisims were of the V8 TR8! This is in fact why Ted Schumacher in the US does a modified limiter valve to give more braking at the back. People writing drivel like this on a public forum is why I won't be renewing my membership next year! Edited December 21, 2005 by Cinnobar Quote Link to post Share on other sites
malcolm Posted December 21, 2005 Author Report Share Posted December 21, 2005 Thanks Jim, this makes sense. I do agree with comments here (and ones I've seen elsewhere) about trying to get better performance from the rear brakes so that they would lock just AFTER the fronts. This is silly though and I suspect you are right about the PRV. Shame if you leave the club though Malcolm. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
rayjones Posted December 21, 2005 Report Share Posted December 21, 2005 The fact that the rear brake shoes are cooked tells you that they are doing too much braking, as Cinnobar says. If the problem was too efficient front brakes causing weight transference away from from the rear wheels, so that they locked up more easily, they would in fact run cooler, as soon as they locked up there would be no friction heat generated from the rear brakes at all, it would be just the tyre rubber burning. Ray Quote Link to post Share on other sites
stevew Posted December 21, 2005 Report Share Posted December 21, 2005 Jim's right in suggesting the PRV as a possible cause to the problem,chances are it's the original unit that was fitted to the car when it was new.Also check that the pipes are fitted to the correct outlets/inlets in the PRV. What master cyl & servo are fitted? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
malcolm Posted December 21, 2005 Author Report Share Posted December 21, 2005 And thanks Steve. The PRV, master cylinder and servo all look standard. I'll compare the way the pipes are connected with my other 7s - otherwise I'll be ordering a replacement from you. When (if at all) are you open over the Xmas period? Cheers Malcolm. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
stevew Posted December 21, 2005 Report Share Posted December 21, 2005 (edited) When (if at all) are you open over the Xmas period? Cheers Malcolm. Open wed 28th,thur 29th and fri 30th 9.00am til 3.00pm mate. May be in xmas eve,not decided yet,if not we finish this fri. Edited December 21, 2005 by stevew Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Cinnobar Posted December 23, 2005 Report Share Posted December 23, 2005 (edited) Alec, thanks for the response. Your response was TIC but do others, especially those who aren't TR Reg members realise that? I keep making the point that this is a public forum. If I was a prospective TR7 owner looking to join a club and came on here and read that, what would I think? This is one of the reasons I've decided to leave and the decision is made, whether I join another club such as TR7 TR8.Com or stay with the TR8CCA I'm not sure, if I could get sensible money for the TR7V8 I'd sell it but I can't. Anyone for £6K for an £ 18K car? Pics on www.pbase.com/tr7v8 of engine & car. As for your comments on the actual cars then yes you're right the quality when new was appallling, I was a car radio fitter in 77-78 so I was in a similar position. My late father also worked in a Major BL dealer in Basingstoke towards the end of TR7 life. However if you read the Autocar type tests of the day although they criticised the quality (the book's been on loan and hasn't come back so I can't quote direct) the overall driving experience didn't come in for much criticism, yes they'd have all liked more power & a 5 speed box but overall were reasonably complimetary. In fact subsequent tests as 5 speeders were even better. I made this comment to Roger Williams when he was writing his TR7-8 book. As for Malcolms car accepted wisdom is that proper race cars are one of the few that warrant rear discs A. because they'll cool better than drums also B. they give more consistant pedal. Not sure wellers still exist as a company. Jim Edited December 23, 2005 by Cinnobar Quote Link to post Share on other sites
malcolm Posted December 23, 2005 Author Report Share Posted December 23, 2005 Anyone for £6K for an £ 18K car? Pics on www.pbase.com/tr7v8 of engine & car. It's a shame you are leaving Jim. You are just the sort of TR7 owner we need in the club. Best of luck where ever you go though. Sell the V8? Now THAT would be a real shame. For any prospective purchasers - from what I know of the car it's worth 6K any day and I'd be pleased to buy it from you for that if I'd not just bought another one!! Malcolm. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DaveR Posted December 23, 2005 Report Share Posted December 23, 2005 If you are happy the drums are not scored and the calipiers are not sticking. Then at an outside guess is it may be the bore size of the rear slave cylinders compared with the four pot calipiers is not the correct ration. In other words the hydraulic system is biased to the rear. Though to me it does sound more like you have problems with the calipiers. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DaveR Posted December 25, 2005 Report Share Posted December 25, 2005 Jim, As a new TR Reg member I may be in a position to provide some feedback. Did Alex,s comments concerning the TR7 put me off, well no they did not. The quality problems were well known at the time and hopefully after some 30 years have been left behide. As for design problems, well I guess that all depends on your point of view and your driving style. One thing is for sure I am very glad about after some 40 years driving, owning and working on Triumphs that there is still a very strong following for the marque. In the mean while Seasonal Greetings at all on the list and anybody got a good to sell TR7? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
marvmul Posted December 25, 2005 Report Share Posted December 25, 2005 Alec, thanks for the response. Your response was TIC but do others, especially those who aren't TR Reg members realise that? I keep making the point that this is a public forum. If I was a prospective TR7 owner looking to join a club and came on here and read that, what would I think? This is one of the reasons I've decided to leave and the decision is made, whether I join another club such as TR7 TR8.Com or stay with the TR8CCA I'm not sure, if I could get sensible money for the TR7V8 I'd sell it but I can't. Anyone for £6K for an £ 18K car? Pics on www.pbase.com/tr7v8 of engine & car. Jim, I doubt if Alec's response is one of the reasons that made you leave the club. Some people make a choice, wether impulsive or not, and stick to that, other people , when they've just bought a car, joined a club or whatever, are already thinking of the next car they would buy, or the next group of people they would join. I'm inclined to the first attitude, without disapproving of other opinions. If all people where thinking about cars like I do, few cars should change hands, last time I sold a car is 15 years ago! Do as you like, but I'm not supposed to be stupid because I stay with the TR Register and the Triumph make, am I? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
malcolm Posted December 25, 2005 Author Report Share Posted December 25, 2005 In the mean while Seasonal Greetings at all on the list and anybody got a good to sell TR7? Dave. The one that just popped up in the For Sale thread looks rather nice Malcolm. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Cinnobar Posted December 25, 2005 Report Share Posted December 25, 2005 "Jim, I doubt if Alec's response is one of the reasons that made you leave the club. Some people make a choice, wether impulsive or not, and stick to that, other people , when they've just bought a car, joined a club or whatever, are already thinking of the next car they would buy, or the next group of people they would join. I'm inclined to the first attitude, without disapproving of other opinions. If all people where thinking about cars like I do, few cars should change hands, last time I sold a car is 15 years ago! Do as you like, but I'm not supposed to be stupid because I stay with the TR Register and the Triumph make, am I?" Marvmul, Long answer I'm afraid! Alecs response & similar ones ARE JUST ONE of the reasons I'm leaving the club. This is a public forum & I think knocking our own cars on a publicly accessed forum is stupid. The others as I've voiced before is that I don't honestly feel that its worth being a member of the TR Register, ESPECIALLY as a 7 owner. What is the TR Register doing for me nothing! I can get all the technical info I need from the web. I've not seen the register deliver spares manufacture or similar for any TR let alone 7's Other clubs support 7's better than the Register and without the undercurrent that 7's shouldn't be in the club. And don't everyone tell me it isn't true because I & others have heard it ourselves! All of the spares support is being done commercially by people like Robsport/S & S/Rimmers etc. This is the FIRST owners club where I cannot get cheap insurance from e.g. that comes anywhere near the cost I can get outside. Social side is one of the reasons given for being a TR Register member, yes & one of the reasons I joined the TR Register, but without an office & five staff do I believe that the social side would cease overnight, no of course it wouldn't, most of the social side is region organised anyway & what isn't I generally don't go to anyway. I also increasingly think that this club isn't listening to the members, issues such as postal voting and some of the comments made around it, I believe point that way. And before anyone mentions it, do I think that the above criticisms should be on a publicly accessible TR Register forum? Then no but since no one else seems to care then neither do I! Would I sell my 7 yes, the reason why is different, my 7 originally cost £ 2,200 in 2000 as a fairly OK car, over the next 2 years I did various upgrades which probably in all cost me around £ 1,000 a year above normal running costs. The car was then hit by a *^%&** idiot in a Securicor van and it was subsequently then found that my shell was beyond economic repair, not due to the accident but because it had seen one or more previous accidents & some dire rust repair. So over the next 18 months I had Robsport reshell it into a California shell. Over the course of the rebuild I'll admit costs went out the window to the point where I now have a car that stands me at £ 18K which is insane. In the past 2 years since it came back I've done possibly 3,000 miles and it rarely comes out of the garage. DO I enjoy driving it? Maybe, but it's no longer fun, I have FAR, FAR too much money invested into it & I'm concious that for £ 18K I could be driving something a lot more exotic. When it was a £ 2K car it was different & I used to enjoy tinkering on it, but now it's complete their is nothing to tinker with or that needs me to, I might add that this is the longest I've ever owned a car. What would I buy instead,? I don't know, possibly nothing or on the other hand I have a Scimitar on the drive that owes me £ 2K and just needs a couple of sills for an MOT and as it has a roll bar etc could be used for track days etc & also out handles anything short of a Porsche! Would I buy another kit, or an Alfa of some sort or Porsche 944 cab, maybe but I'd still end up with something that sits in the garage for 99% of the time and if it costs too much then nags at me to say "Look what money is tied up you're not using!" To be honest it now backs up my Porsche 944 which is my daily driver & run on a company car allowance. But for the odd time I need it I can rent a car at £ 35 a day & not be scared to leave it anywhere. Jim Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DaveR Posted December 26, 2005 Report Share Posted December 26, 2005 Dave. The one that just popped up in the For Sale thread looks rather nice Malcolm. Thanks Malcolm, I will have a look. Just to cover Jim's point re the TR Reg which applies to other car clubs. If we did not have organisation of their nature then are interests would not be represented and we would have no clout or voice. Just my point of view. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
marvmul Posted December 26, 2005 Report Share Posted December 26, 2005 Jim, I do fully agree with your comment on the spare parts politics of the TR Register. I still wouldn't sell the TR7 : maybe 18000 pounds is too much, but if you didn't buy this car in 2000 you wouldn't have that 18000 pounds in your pocket now; you can't undo mistakes and misjudgements of the past by selling the car and buying another one (and a new money pit with that!). I think, if you sell it, you will regret it later, when you see someone is a nice TR7 with a big V8 in it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
malcolm Posted December 26, 2005 Author Report Share Posted December 26, 2005 I can't agree with you Jim, and the membership holds steady at around 7500 suggests that most people are getting something out of the club. I wonder if you know the split of car ownership in our club? It might be not be a surprise to hear approx. half are TR6 owners (I wonder how many are red?) but a THIRD are TR7 owners. I agree with Dave that a large national club gives us a voice in a country that sometimes seems set against motorists, and classis car owners in particular. As well as supporting the local groups, producing an excellent magazine (which has had good TR7 content of late) and organising the national events. There's a wealth on knowledge and real experience in the club that's not downloadable from the Internet. I don't think the club in anti-TR7. It's a shame you weren't at Malvern last year for the TR7's 30th anniversary. A club that did not embrace the TR7 wouldn't have gone to that effort and expense, or allow TR7 owners to hijack their national event! I can agree that sharing a club with TR2 to TR6 does water down the TR7 content in the club. Also that some early TR owners have no love for the '7. Why should they though? Some TR7 owners don't like early cars either. Someone with no interest in the broader range of TRs (or Triumph cars in general) might be better of at the TRDC or TR7-8.com. As for your car Jim. You're in the same boat as the rest of us. Anyone spending significant amounts of money on a TR7 does it with the knowledge they are never going to get it back. It is a hobby and we do it because we love the cars. You can pick up a TR7 cheaply and run it for a while, but eventually it will need some money spent on it and sadly it's often cheaper to scrap it and buy another one Enjoy your TR7V8 because it is an excellent car that Triumph (BL) should have made. I'm not sure 18k is such a bad price for an as new British V8 convertible sports car with stunning wedge styling, but that's just my 2p.... Malcolm. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
rosey Posted December 26, 2005 Report Share Posted December 26, 2005 Jim Please don't burden the rest of us with your £18k 'loss', I wish I had a tenth of that to spend on my car If you can't afford to lose it then don't spend it in the first place! it's a bit like gambling isn't it? I cannot see the relevance of blaming the register & it's members for YOU spending YOUR money on a car! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Kiwifrog Posted December 26, 2005 Report Share Posted December 26, 2005 Jim, No matter what car club you belong to there is always someone who will knock your car, its a human thing, insecure people trying to make themselves feel more important by knocking other peoples choice. Its part of everyday life. Ignore it, lets face it more TR7's were sold than any other TR so it must have been a bloody popular choice in its day. There are good and bad points about all the TR's but if it has TR on the badge it should always be ( and generally is ) welcome in the register. I have owned a Tr2, TR3 Tr4 and TR6 and there are lots of things that were generically wrong with them, ironically the only reason I never owned a TR7 in New Zealand in the 80's when I could enjoy my passion for TRs as they were dirt cheap and nobody wanted them was because TR7's were still a reletivly new car and too expensive for me! I am a register member and I think anyone who spouts any type of rubbish about any type of TR not being welcome in the club is missing the point. Cheers and have a TRiffic new year Alan Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Cinnobar Posted December 26, 2005 Report Share Posted December 26, 2005 What? Where did I say that I'M Blaming the register for the amount I've spent on the car? My first line regarding the car is "Would I sell my 7 yes, the reason why is different" My issues with the register are completely different & not associated with the car. As for burden, someone asked why would I sell it & I answered, if you don't want to read it fine that's everybodies choice but they are my feelings at present & would apply if it had been say a MGB (god forbid) or any other classic. If I sell the car and that's a BIG IF because I'm not sure I can get what I want for it, I'll still leave the register because of the reasons mentioned. The only loose link wth leaving the Register & the car is that it's a 7 The main reason that the 7 would go is because I have so much money tied up in it that I don't feel it's "Fun" anymore & that is probably more a reflection on me than the car! Certainly that doing 20K miles a year I don't regard driving as fun anymore, irrespective of what it is. As for you're comment that you wish you'd had a tenth of that, fine, I struggled especially towards the end to pay for it so although it appears to be a cheque book resoration it wasn't to that extent I did the engine & front suspension build myself and would have preferred to have done the lot had I the space. Also bear in that this rebuild took 2 years so it equates to 9K per annum. Jim Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Chris Draper Posted January 1, 2006 Report Share Posted January 1, 2006 I'm not sure that the money is too relevant here - it's whether you enjoy the car or not. If you don't, you might as well sell it. I reckon I've spent over 30k on mine - including 14k on a body rebuild a couple of years ago closely followed by 4k on a blown engine. Could have done without the last one, but at least I ended up with a rather nice 4.6 lump... The problem with a body rebuild is that you get the car back and yes it looks nice and shiny with its' new paint, but that's the only real visible sign of the large amount of money spent. You know that it's going to give you another 10 - 15 years of life in the car, but it's not like getting a new engine with more power or upgraded brakes for example. It is frustrating to know that the money wouldn't be even a third realised on a sale, but there's not much you can do about it and ultimately in my case I enjoy driving a car that has become entirely personalised and unique. Not to mention fast enough to blow the doors off pretty much anything... I reckon what it comes down to is whether you can get over that nagging voice in the back of your head which keeps reminding you how much you spent!! Whatever you do though, you can't get your money back so why let someone else take advantage of your hard earned cash? After all, it's still the same car that you used to enjoy. Hope you can find a way to come to terms with it so that you can enjoy the money you've spent. If not, good luck with whatever else you buy (please don't make it an MGB!!!). Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Andy Moltu Posted January 5, 2006 Report Share Posted January 5, 2006 Can't get £6k for an £18k car. Simple - the classic care market forces say that a TR7 - however good you may think isn't going to reach £6k. (There may be the odd concours winner or historically important car to buck the trend) You've missed the point - look on classic cars as something you do for enjoyment. They are a money pit. So you've spent a lot of money that you'll never recoup. That's part of classic ownership. Some spend shedloads knowing they won't get their money back others are suprised when they don't. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
malcolm Posted January 5, 2006 Author Report Share Posted January 5, 2006 Andy's hit the nail there. I bought a TR7 for £3500, spent £000s on it and hundreds of hours over a few years and then sold it for £3000 But I did enjoy the car very much and it won't stop me doing it again (I've bought another 2 TR7s since!!). This may sound dumb, but it's my hobby and I like doing it.... Malcolm. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
malcolm Posted February 25, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 25, 2006 Its a shame no one answered who knew a TR7!The issue is the PDV, Pressure differential valve, PRV Pressure Reducing Valve or whatever you want to call it has jammed! Finally got around to replacing this prior to tomorrow's RWYB day at SantaPod and it's done the job. Thanks for all the advice Malcolm. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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