astontr6 Posted February 15, 2017 Report Share Posted February 15, 2017 Mickey, I am not an advocate of reconning these hub units for your stated reasons and others but I was only referring to the assembly side. I know of 2 cars that became 3 wheelers all of a sudden!!!! Both parties were lucky that they were not going at speed and they were not injured. I would still be dubious about buying new unless I knew what EN or DIN spec. they were made out of. Unfortunately this is based upon my experiences with 2 of our main TR part suppliers. The last experience only being in last October 2016 with gearbox layshafts where they were incorrectly harden ( not Rockwell 60 C+) and they had already sold over 40 out of a batch of 100? How did I know they were soft? They failed the tried and tested file test to start off with. This problem goes back years! Its even in a Roger Williams book of 2003? So there are 40+ gearboxes that will not be lasting too long, as this is another well known failure area! Have they got their houses in order??? Bruce. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Richard Young Posted February 15, 2017 Author Report Share Posted February 15, 2017 (edited) Hubs just arrived from Moss...see subsequent post.... Edited February 15, 2017 by Richard Young Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest ntc Posted February 15, 2017 Report Share Posted February 15, 2017 Hubs just arrived from Moss...have checked play and both are 2 thou....so all looks good. Richard. Richard Result let that be a warning to others. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Richard Young Posted February 15, 2017 Author Report Share Posted February 15, 2017 Hold your horses Neil. In my rush to check them I have jumped the gun slightly...I have double checked the tollerances again and both hubs have no play at all and are fairly stiff to turn.One stiffer than the other. I stupidly didnt have my dial gauge on a firm base when I initially checked them and was reading just under 2 thou for both. Coincedence that there must have been 2 thou rock in the magnet base,causing the miss reading and my rush in checking. I am waiting for a response from Moss on this.It might be that they have re designed the internals and so no end play.Long shot but I really dont want to send this lot back! Hold fire everyone. R. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Richard Young Posted February 15, 2017 Author Report Share Posted February 15, 2017 Just spoken to Josh at Moss (London). He has told me that their guy tightens them up with no play and fairly stiff and then It will be found that once a few miles have been put on them they should free off and then can be tightened if need be.They still have collapsable spacer. So what do we think?..talk about a grey area. Will need to sleep on it. Richard. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest ntc Posted February 15, 2017 Report Share Posted February 15, 2017 Certain play is acceptable but not from the off.Don't loose sleep. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Tom Boyd Posted February 15, 2017 Report Share Posted February 15, 2017 I have had no issues with the bastuck items, previous moss ones yes but I understand they have changed there supplier. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RogerH Posted February 15, 2017 Report Share Posted February 15, 2017 Hi Tom, it sounds like Moss are assembling their own. They have all the parts - why not go for it. Roger Quote Link to post Share on other sites
astontr6 Posted February 15, 2017 Report Share Posted February 15, 2017 Hence my original thread? If you have no clearance between the rollers and races are you not going to force the grease out in those areas and have no lube. Then the harden steel surface will heat up and start to break up? Note. Roger's comments on harden steel when crack testing! Bruce. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RogerH Posted February 15, 2017 Report Share Posted February 15, 2017 Hi Bruce, assuming that the bearings are packed with grease correctly; if the grease gets squeezed out from under the balls/rollers, then as the bearing heats up 'liquid' grease will run into the contact areas.. After all grease is only a suspension of oil in a thicker medium (clay etc). The liquid will eventually run out (but it does work on a geological timescale. Roger Quote Link to post Share on other sites
astontr6 Posted February 15, 2017 Report Share Posted February 15, 2017 Roger, That is not how I was taught to re-new taper roller bearings on our plant equipment on the factory floor? Quote: 'They must be set up with minimal clearance'! Mind you that was 50 years ago! Have things now changed?? I have just looked at my NSK 2016 bearing book and they describe grease as being poor on fluidity. Bruce Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RogerH Posted February 15, 2017 Report Share Posted February 15, 2017 Hi Bruce, quite so, there should be a minimal clearance as per the front bearings. However whatever the gap the grease will get hot and allow the liquid oil to come out. Indeed it is not very fluid compared to something like water but it will separate, but slowly. Roger Quote Link to post Share on other sites
stuart Posted February 16, 2017 Report Share Posted February 16, 2017 Look in your workshop manual chaps rear hubs should have between 0.004" and 0.002" end float with a note to say if the end float is less than 0.002" then the collapsible spacer must be replaced, merely slackening the nut is NOT satisfactory. Stuart. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Richard Young Posted February 16, 2017 Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2017 Have just received a reply from supplier saying that the make them tight because when they originally built them with 2 thou clearance, after a period of time on the car, there were issues of them ending up with far more play than spec (2thou) and possible MOT advisory of loose hubs.he assured me that after 100 or so miles of use they will end up at the right spec. This does go against my engineering instincts but I'm minded to fit them and monitor the result. I need to move on and I have already sent one lot back to differant supplier. Richard. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
astontr6 Posted February 16, 2017 Report Share Posted February 16, 2017 +1 for Stuart except my 1972 Brown Book edition says 2 to 5 thou end-float. My BL White Book edition of 1977, agrees with my 1972 Brown Book, but at the end of the day, 1 thou, that is only splitting hairs. Richard: What does he mean by too much play? How much? As to date most people seem to concentrate on 2 thou. max end float? Both my manuals have a section on reducing end float when in service? Sorry to make it more complicated! Bruce. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Richard Young Posted February 16, 2017 Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2017 (edited) Bruce, They (supplier) are saying that some of their previous hubs caused problems when adjusted to 2thou.The problem being the measurement increases too much when in use. So,I'm thinking why does the float increase at all..what is giving. Seems all too 'hit and miss.' Richard Edited February 16, 2017 by Richard Young Quote Link to post Share on other sites
stuart Posted February 16, 2017 Report Share Posted February 16, 2017 Unless the collapsible spacer is made of cheese then nothing should change from built to several thousand miles of running. Originals have done considerable mileage before needing attention/replacement. Stuart. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
astontr6 Posted February 16, 2017 Report Share Posted February 16, 2017 Richard, +1 for Stuart--- Plus low tensile strength of the other steel components and poor thread forms,(steel starting to stretch) or bearings not seated properly or bearings starting to wear. This why I said that in one of my previous threads I would like to know what spec steels are used. In the past when I have asked Moss what spec./ drawing was used! They did not do that sort of thing??? There response was to a supplier is 'I want one of them' They are yet to find out how engineering procurement is done on a product like this from scratch. Unfortunately, GKN ---Hardy Spicer were the OEM for this part which included the drive shaft as well and GKN sold this division off long ago to their German Competitor! Bruce. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TR NIALL Posted February 16, 2017 Report Share Posted February 16, 2017 This is all very interesting but what if one needs to replace a Hub or Hubs what are we supposed to use cos at the moment none seem to be Fit for Purpose. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Richard Young Posted February 16, 2017 Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2017 (edited) (Stuart/Bruce) and others...... Dont really have much choice here...doesnt seem to be anyone doing these hubs to tollerances we desire. Going to have to fit them and see what happens.It probably wont be a problem if they go over spec as play could be taken up with a big spanner (which I have) but still means taking the things off to do it.. My only real concern is what potential damage might be done to a new bearing which would be under extra stress until such time it 'frees off'.It takes both hands to turn them as they are now. Richard. Edited February 16, 2017 by Richard Young Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Motorsport Mickey Posted February 16, 2017 Report Share Posted February 16, 2017 (Stuart/Bruce) and others...... Dont really have much choice here...doesnt seem to be anyone doing these hubs to tollerances we desire. Going to have to fit them and see what happens.It probably wont be a problem if they go over spec as play could be taken up with a big spanner (which I have) but still means taking the things off to do it.. My only real concern is what potential damage might be done to a new bearing which would be under extra stress until such time it 'frees off'.It takes both hands to turn them as they are now. Richard. You fit these Richard, available for Stag from Monarch Stag .....http://www.monarch-stags.co.uk/transmission so I think they'll fit IRS cars also ? unless anybody knows better... they are "run in" on a lathe first so avoiding any "interference" of the preloaded bearings and then reset. Brand New Rear Hubs - better than originals! Much stronger flanges with thickness increased to 13mm. Made from turned billet on automatic C.N.C. machine. Fitted with new shaft, all new bearings and seals. Everything new. As with my recon hubs, run-in on lathe for 20 minutes before end-float is set. Comes ready to bolt on. Available at £720.-00 a pair. All knowledge is here. Mick Richards Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TR NIALL Posted February 16, 2017 Report Share Posted February 16, 2017 You fit these Richard, available for Stag from Monarch Stag .....http://www.monarch-stags.co.uk/transmission so I think they'll fit IRS cars also ? unless anybody knows better... they are "run in" on a lathe first so avoiding any "interference" of the preloaded bearings and then reset. Brand New Rear Hubs - better than originals! Much stronger flanges with thickness increased to 13mm. Made from turned billet on automatic C.N.C. machine. Fitted with new shaft, all new bearings and seals. Everything new. As with my recon hubs, run-in on lathe for 20 minutes before end-float is set. Comes ready to bolt on. Available at £720.-00 a pair. All knowledge is here. Mick Richards Thanks for that one Mick. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
stuart Posted February 16, 2017 Report Share Posted February 16, 2017 You fit these Richard, available for Stag from Monarch Stag .....http://www.monarch-stags.co.uk/transmission so I think they'll fit IRS cars also ? unless anybody knows better... they are "run in" on a lathe first so avoiding any "interference" of the preloaded bearings and then reset. Brand New Rear Hubs - better than originals! Much stronger flanges with thickness increased to 13mm. Made from turned billet on automatic C.N.C. machine. Fitted with new shaft, all new bearings and seals. Everything new. As with my recon hubs, run-in on lathe for 20 minutes before end-float is set. Comes ready to bolt on. Available at £720.-00 a pair. All knowledge is here. Mick Richards So they have thicker flanges, does this mean the drum sits further out too? Stuart. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Motorsport Mickey Posted February 16, 2017 Report Share Posted February 16, 2017 (edited) So they have thicker flanges, does this mean the drum sits further out too? Stuart. Dunno...maybe worth an enquiry to find out is the thickness on the back or the front of the flange. The Classic Driving Developments write up includes the same spec for Stag and TR IRS cars http://www.classicdrivingdevelopment.co.uk/cats.asp?cID=2&carID=3&page=TR6+REAR+UJ+HUB%2C+NEW+%26+UPRATED but there's no mention of increased flange thickness (only increased flange radii) or whether the hubs are pre run in before setting end float. Good parts also offers the upgraded new hubs and they will fit the TR but there is a small problem of different continent. The running of the hubs in a lathe to "bed in " the bearings before setting the end float is a worthwhile practice though whichever hub manufacturer is used. Edit : from your other thread you say the CDD flange is thicker so that, as you say, would give the further flange outset if not accommodated within the rear of the flange. Mick Richards Edited February 16, 2017 by Motorsport Mickey Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RogerH Posted February 16, 2017 Report Share Posted February 16, 2017 Hi Folks, I've just spent quite a while trying to understand the hub assembly and my brain hurts. The 'end float' is shared by the two taper bearings. The big nut on the back is adjusted to give an end float of 0.002" - 0.004" This nuts acts on a tube that is crushed/distorted and allows the nut to react/sit against. With the tube crushed to the correct amount the hub body should have and retain this 0,002" end float. If the end float is zero then how do you know how much force is applied to the taper bearings. Increased force will cause wear probably quicker than planned. It could also heat the bearing to such a degree that it seizes or breaks up. If the end float is too great then the taper bearings will not be running on the track/race correct and again cause rapid wear. If you receive a hub with an end float on the large side you would think you could simply 'nip' it up b ut how do you know it hadn't already been over tightened in the workshop then slackened off. If the crush tube has been crushed and there is excessive end float (bearing wear) then simply nipping the nut up covers up a worn bearing and failure will follow. You can actually buy all the parts separately - maybe that's the way to go. I have an old hub and this afternoon I mounted it in the lathe with a view to checking the end float. Everything was bolted down solidly. Attach the DTI and ------ nothing. I couldn't detect any end floats aaarrrrgghhh. I think some long bolts through the various holes will help draw the two sections together/apart rather than bashing or levering. I may invest £10 and get my local TR garage to separate this hub so I can see the inside. Roger Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.