Oil Leak & Steamy Crank Beather

[McMuttley]

Bear with me....

 

Took Olde Very Smokey for a run today - apart from the MoT - first time since end of July

 

Started first time, ran well, good steady oil pressure and temps all the way, with a run down the A21 in slowish traffic, one junction round the M25 at circa 70mph to blow off the cobwebs, pulled strongly for overtaking - and then headed back up the A20 (traffic again) - total circa 1 hour.

 

About 2 miles from home whilst sitting in a queue I spotted the crank case breather breathing steamyish. Had a minor panic thinking that I hadn't checked the water before leaving, but with 1500 revs for the rest of the journey seems OK.

 

Got home, turned off, opened bonnet to start up again to look at breather in action - then noticed trail of oil down drive and road !!!!!!!!!

 

Panic, turned off, look under engine - nowt in drip trays or under block ???? then notice front of car large puddle of oil -eeek.

 

Noticed it was dripping directly from under oil rad (YES DONT GET ONE) - began to relax slightly.

 

No dripping with engine off.

 

On my dip stick the lower mark is about a 1/4 from bottom - and the oil level was about there.

 

After letting it rest for an hour put about 1/4 - 1/3 pint oil in and you could see the clearer newer oil on the dip stick.

 

With no sparks, turned over starter motor to circulate and check level - oddly no oil pressure on gauge ???

 

Put similar amount in again (now at upper mark on dip stick) and tuned engine over for say 30+ secs and oil pressure gauge rose to normal figure.

 

Looked under while engine running to see where the leak was under pressure. Had assumed it was the oil rad hose connections into the oil rad, but no, seems to be seeking slowly from rad itself.

 

I assume the original trail and significant puddle on parking were due to combination of hot oil and pressure following the run, but fortunately, it must have happened closish to home for it not to be more cataclysmic, i.e., no grinding noises, smoke ....and I had oil pressure all the way ?

 

Question - could this have caused any hidden damage ? .......Exhaust was smokey and crank steamy on brief re-start up to check pressure, but didn't run it for long for obvious reasons.

 

What should I check ?

 

I assume my easiest option is to replace oil rad with a like for like, or just take out, but I assume that the latter will involve a new filter base - currently has a large spin on ?

 

Will I be able to do either of the above without draining the oil ?

 

Advice greatly appreciated.

Edited November 13, 2016 by McMuttley

[Motorsport Mickey]

As long as the oil wasn't lower than the bottom mark on the stick when the engine was hot there will be no damage.

 

The oil levels between the top of the scale and the bottom of the scale are just the top and bottom reservoir amounts marked, often engines will burn or push out oil that is topped up to the top level, the crankcase pressure existing either pushing the oil past the rings and burning it ( I thought you called it Old Smokey ?) or out of breathers and oil seals. Not unusual, many engines of cars and trucks do this, when you are used to the engine you often find the oil level stabilises somewhere upon the scale between top and bottom and then oil usage becomes more reasonable, ie it doesn't vary or use much.

When the engine cools down there will be more oil in the sump as the oil drains back down into the sump, and this will naturally give you a higher reading than the one you took hot, no problem.

As for an oil cooler it's not strictly necessary in the UK and if you have one fitted a thermostatic valve needs incorporating so the engine isn't overcooled. If the rad is split (as you describe) you could either

 

A) Replace with a new radiator.

 

Remove the split radiator and use a connector between the two pipes so the oil just circulates. No oil spill involved.

 

C) Remove whatever adaptor which is in place on your oil filter head along with the pipes and split rad, and replace with the standard oil filter head. There may be some small oil loss and spillage from the oil filter head area.

 

Head for the pub and recommend another beer for us.

 

Mick Richards

 

PS: Don't know why the emoje keeps being shown in the second line of options, I'm typing a but it keeps showing it. Buqqer see I typed B.

Edited November 13, 2016 by Motorsport Mickey

[john.r.davies]

IMHO, oil cooler not required for road use, unless you like in Dhubai or similar, or tow a heavy trailer.

So, yes, remove it.

You will need a different spin-on filter adaptor, and doing the work will lose some oil from the connections and block fitting, but not a sumpful.

 

I suspect the "lack" of oil pressure at first was just the usual delay, exaggerated by anxiety!

No harm if the level was as high as you say.

 

JOhn

[RogerH]

Hi MIck,

your funny face instead of a B is caused by the brackets (I think).

 

If you enclose it in brackets ensure there is a space between the bracket and the letter B

The same applies to C

 

( B )

(

( C )

©

 

 

Roger

[BrianC]

PS: Don't know why the emoje keeps being shown in the second line of options, I'm typing a but it keeps showing it. Buqqer see I typed B.

Type a different character instead of CRB (closed round bracket) as some combinations of letter and CRB represent emojis.

e.g.

a: xxx

b: yyy

c: zzz

[Motorsport Mickey]

AAhhh thanks for the advice.

 

Mick Richards

[McMuttley]

As long as the oil wasn't lower than the bottom mark on the stick when the engine was hot there will be no damage.

 

The oil levels between the top of the scale and the bottom of the scale are just the top and bottom reservoir amounts marked, often engines will burn or push out oil that is topped up to the top level, the crankcase pressure existing either pushing the oil past the rings and burning it ( I thought you called it Old Smokey ?) or out of breathers and oil seals. Not unusual, many engines of cars and trucks do this, when you are used to the engine you often find the oil level stabilises somewhere upon the scale between top and bottom and then oil usage becomes more reasonable, ie it doesn't vary or use much.

When the engine cools down there will be more oil in the sump as the oil drains back down into the sump, and this will naturally give you a higher reading than the one you took hot, no problem.

As for an oil cooler it's not strictly necessary in the UK and if you have one fitted a thermostatic valve needs incorporating so the engine isn't overcooled. If the rad is split (as you describe) you could either

 

A) Replace with a new radiator.

 

Remove the split radiator and use a connector between the two pipes so the oil just circulates. No oil spill involved.

 

C) Remove whatever adaptor which is in place on your oil filter head along with the pipes and split rad, and replace with the standard oil filter head. There may be some small oil loss and spillage from the oil filter head area.

 

Head for the pub and recommend another beer for us.

 

 

Thanks Mick, the oil rad is marked ARA221, which seems to be an MG (hack spit) part and cheap - woohoo. £27 - or at worst £70 for a mocal)

 

I dont fancy taking the converter plate etc off as I might make things worse !

 

Will first try a 1/2' male to male connector to isolate the rad and make sure it is the rad. Need to get ready for Brands on 5/12.

 

There has always been a slight drip and I just thought it was a weeping hose joint. Indeed, I took some photos when up on the ramp at the MoT and the dribble was visible (clearly not a MoT failure !).

 

I assume that yesterday the hole in the oil rad just decided to get bigger and the hot thin oil went into 'spew' rather than 'drip' mode.

 

The wife walked in and asked if everything was OK, as he had followed a trail of oil from Bromley and sensed it would (and did) take her right to our driveway !

 

Should I hope that once I have changed the oil and any overfill has settled down/burned away (how long might that take), that the steamy crank breather will settle down ? .....but if it doesn't it may be piston rings ? or ... ...?????

 

 

 

 

drips at MoT a few weeks ago

 

after yesterdays 'splatter'

[McMuttley]

or could I just put two male plugs in the converter plate ?

 

https://www.merlinmotorsport.co.uk/p/mocal-1-2-bsp-steel-blanking-plug-m-plug-8bsp

 

https://www.merlinmotorsport.co.uk/p/mocal-1-2-bsp-steel-blanking-cap-m-cap-8bsp

 

[Motorsport Mickey]

Yep, as I remember about 35 years ago on a continental trip to the south of France the gradual loss of braking was disclosed as a split oil rad on my TR4, it was supplying a microscopic fountain of oil onto the inside of the brake disc with consequential loss of braking effort !

Easy fix just disconnect the pipe from radiator and looped it back onto the adaptor from off the block, clean disc thoroughly with brake cleaner and refit brake part used brake pads removed for the journey and used as spares.

 

Don't be too eager to start stripping down the engine, loads to ascertain and check yet, how about the oil cooler chilling off the oil causing condensation and therefore steamy emissions ? Get the rad off and block off the pipes from the adaptor with plugs or a small loop pipe from out back into in, bring your oil back up to wherever you think the running level is and use the car for a thousand miles and see how it settles, now where that's beer ?

 

Mick Richards

[Guest ntc]

Also remember the outside temp?

[McMuttley]

as in cold outside air = steamy crank breather ?

[Guest ntc]

as in cold outside air = steamy crank breather ?

Yep

As Mick says do not rush in.

[BlueTR3A-5EKT]

or could I just put two male plugs in the converter plate ?

 

https://www.merlinmotorsport.co.uk/p/mocal-1-2-bsp-steel-blanking-plug-m-plug-8bsp

 

https://www.merlinmotorsport.co.uk/p/mocal-1-2-bsp-steel-blanking-cap-m-cap-8bsp

 

 

Could the cooler leak be the classic MGB issue of tightening the oil cooler hose using one spanner only?. You need to use two spanners - one on the hose, one on the cooler boss.

 

No do not blank them off at the oil filter sandwich plate, as it will stop all oil flow to the engine from the pump.

 

Better off to put in a double ended union and join the hoses together at the cooler. Ring the supplier and get the correct threaded item for your oil cooler hoses which I would guess are 1/2 BSP - CHECK BEFORE YOU ORDER.

 

Like this http://www.thinkauto.com/acatalog/On_line_shop_BSP_to_BSP__158.html

or Mocal http://www.mocal.co.uk/products.html#threadedadapters

 

Peter W

[Stanpartmanpartwolf]

Your problem has been caused by the old-skool oil cooler adaptor.

It supplies oil directly from the pump at full pressure (huge, with a good pump) & overloads the radiator, especially if the hoses are unsecured & any vibration contributes.

Later adaptors, fitted between the filter & head, supply pressure-relieved oil BUT, when combined with a spin-on adaptor, neatly bypass the oil filter altogether!

This is the cause of the mysteriously accelerated crankshaft wear evident in a lot of tuned TR 4-pots; cool oil with muck in it.

I've used the Spitfire adaptor for the last 20-odd years & it works perfectly.

If you absolutely must use an old-skool adaptor, an aircraft oil cooler is the only safe option. These things withstand high pressure, do fit, & have an "aircraft" price tag.

[McMuttley]

Thanks wolfman, i did notice that the rad is bolted direct to the front 'valance', with no vibration mount.

 

Found these at Merlin

 

https://www.merlinmotorsport.co.uk/p/oil-cooler-double-mounting-rubber-oc-av-mtg-2

 

the only issue is that as the rad is under not over the valance, they will lower it even closer to the passing stones !

[monty]

Thanks wolfman, i did notice that the rad is bolted direct to the front 'valance', with no vibration mount.

Found these at Merlin

https://www.merlinmotorsport.co.uk/p/oil-cooler-double-mounting-rubber-oc-av-mtg-2

the only issue is that as the rad is under not over the valance, they will lower it even closer to the passing stones !

Yes, these anti-vibration mounts are essential.

[monty]

Your problem has been caused by the old-skool oil cooler adaptor.

It supplies oil directly from the pump at full pressure (huge, with a good pump) & overloads the radiator, especially if the hoses are unsecured & any vibration contributes.

Later adaptors, fitted between the filter & head, supply pressure-relieved oil BUT, when combined with a spin-on adaptor, neatly bypass the oil filter altogether!

This is the cause of the mysteriously accelerated crankshaft wear evident in a lot of tuned TR 4-pots; cool oil with muck in it.

I've used the Spitfire adaptor for the last 20-odd years & it works perfectly.

If you absolutely must use an old-skool adaptor, an aircraft oil cooler is the only safe option. These things withstand high pressure, do fit, & have an "aircraft" price tag.

Hi,

Does this same bypass of the oil filter occur with an oil cooler fitted to a correct thermostat (oil stat) fitted between a Purolator or Tecalemit filter head & a spin-on adaptor/K & N filter? If so then every TR supplier has got it wrong if using an oil cooler/spin-on conversion & if not, what is different to the installation you have outlined?

It would also mean that every race/rally or uprated car using an oil cooler (I would guess most race/rally cars) & a spin-on filter (again I would think most) are at risk? Cannot be the case surely?

Cheers.

[Lebro]

Just get rid of the dam thing, you don't need it. !!!!

 

Bob.

[McMuttley]

Bob, you sound just like the wife.

 

My fear is that i take the spin on adapter off and then the oil converter plate and then the spin on adapter will not fit back on the block !

[Lebro]

Austin.

Is the oil cooler adaptor not simply a plate fitted between the normal oil filter top casting & the block ?

It looks that way from the photo. If so just remove it, & bolt the casting direct to the block (with gasket of course) using shorter screws.

 

or is it more complicated than that ??

 

Bob.

[monty]

Wolfman, is this setup doing the right thing? Thermostat (oil stat) between the filter housing & the spin-on K & N filter.

Cheers.

[Stanpartmanpartwolf]

Monty-

I am pretty sure that's the later version, which works; the troublesome one positions the take-off plate first, then the spin-on adaptor, then the filter - & bypasses the filter.

Hard to believe, but true.

[monty]

Monty-

I am pretty sure that's the later version, which works; the troublesome one positions the take-off plate first, then the spin-on adaptor, then the filter - & bypasses the filter.

Hard to believe, but true.

That is reassuring. The oil thermostat was bought from Merlin Motorsport a couple of years ago & all fitted by somebody who works on expensive classic cars including racing classics so am confident in the application. All very similar to many other installations I have seen around.

Regards.

[McMuttley]

Found this TR5 kit - looks pretty practical !

 

[mike3739]