EFI complete and data :-)

[marki]

Afternoon all.

Well the car is back in the garage at home and were all done. Had a very enjoyable drive back from mapping this afternoon, drives completely different. Very very smooth a lot more responsive and more power. All in all an enjoyable experience a few headaches mainly wiring orientated but the end result is definitely worth it.

I'm very impressed with the power now up to 178BHP at the fly, a gain of 20HP from the Lucas set up.

If any body is thinking of biting the bullet and doing the conversion I would recommend it.

Cheers, happy boy Mark.

[TriumphV8]

Congratulations! Thats pretty nice and in addition

the power curve continues smooth after top.

Some other TRs break after top performance like you hit the limiter.

You can be happy with the results!

[marki]

Thanks Andreas.

I'm more than happy.

Mark.

[TRTOM2498PI]

Hi Mark,

 

Delighted for you.

 

Presume more torque no aswell ? Before and after figures ?

 

Cheers

Tom

[marki]

Hi Tom.

I don't have the figures on me at the mo, but it think it was about 148lb so also a great improvement.

What does you engine give ? I'd imagine you would also notice a huge difference.

Cheers Mark.

[Kevo_6]

Well done Mark, I bet you're well happy. Now for some long tours through Europe. Enjoy :-)

 

(null)

[TRTOM2498PI]

Hi Mark,

 

Thanks.

 

My engine/car is extensively modified. I always use Peter Burgess's RR, for back to back testing. Last time I was there the car made 196bhp @ flywheel, and 200lbs ft. I forget at what RPM, and working overseas at present, so unable to confirm. I am on Lucas PI.

 

I have driven an all steel EFI 6, basically full race, and was VERY eager to answer to the throttle with this EFI set-up.

 

Cheers.

[Guest ntc]

Tom

As I said before Weber it

[Nick Jones]

Properly set-up, late series Dellortos will give basic FI a run for it's money on power, driveability and economy, though the set-up requires considerable patience and expertise (and a huge selection of jets etc).

 

Webers..... much cruder device...... though pretty fair result possible with the correct set-up (also requiring considerable patience, expertise and a huge selection of bits).

 

Tin hat and flak jacket on.......

 

Can confirm that Tom's TR6 is a monster and makes the most wonderful noise

 

Nick

[Andy Moltu]

Is a triple Dellorto set up not going to cost as much as an efi set up along with the added complication of even fewer people with the expertise and jets to set up these days?

 

My concern with efi is that if something goes wrong there is not much you can do to fix it yourself should you be halfway around Europe. Having experienced my modern's efi play up it became clear that many main dealers don't have a clue so imagine the effect of getting fault finding done in say Spain with a bespoke efi setup?

 

With the crude old Lucas you can pretty well cover all the potential bases by carrying a spare pump, injector, drive dog and diaphragm.

[Nick Jones]

Yes, triple sidedrafts are likely to cost as much or more as some EFI installs, especially considering setup costs. However, it is possible to spend eye watering sums on EFI.

 

As to reliability and breakdowns..... it's all down to the quality of the gear and the install. Of course, if you've done the whole conversion yourself, you'll have a pretty good idea how to sort it in the unlikely event of a problem.

 

Mine, both of which have been at the "el-cheapo DIY end" have been totally reliable especially considering most components had already done their planned lifetime of work before coming to live in my cars. Vitesse was converted in 2005 and has done maybe 40k since including 1 RBRR, 4 10 Countries and various other long distance events in addition to general use. I carry a complete set of the critical bits on the long hauls but have never needed any of them. I pronounced it tested after completing the 2008 RBRR without issue, largely in peeing rain.

 

I did change the fuel pump a couple of years back (came from a scrapped Pug 405). It was still working but I was fed up with the racket it was making.

 

Nick

[marki]

Hi Guys.

I personally think it's a case of different folks different strokes. Everybody has there thing but I would say the modern good quality EFI will take some beating for reliability and economy.

I have driven a 6 with dellorto's and it was a very responsive drive, never driven a 6 on Webber's although had plenty of former cars with them and they did tend to need a lot of fettling over time.

As long as we're all happy with what we have then happy days.

Mark.

[saggy]

I found EFI cheap by comparison to carbs!

[Richard71]

Mark,

 

Besides the EFI, what other engine mods do you have, camshaft type, re-worked cyl head, overbore etc?

 

Or is it pretty much standard?

 

Richard.

[TriumphV8]

 

My concern with efi is that if something goes wrong there is not much you can do to fix it yourself should you be halfway around Europe. Having experienced my modern's efi play up it became clear that many main dealers don't have a clue so imagine the effect of getting fault finding done in say Spain with a bespoke efi setup?

 

 

I wonder why people drive half way round the world with a similar EFI but from BOSCH

in their daily driver and worry what parts might fail in an EFI fitted to an TR.

 

As there are much less parts that are moving in an EFI compared to a Lucas PI

there is less chance to fail.

With the Laptop on bord or maybe the app on the smartphone its possible

to check the incoming data that might cause the EFI to fail.

It is very unlikely that the ECU itself will fail.

Keep in mind that MegaSquirt 2 employs the ECU from modern ABS system.

Nobody expects to loose the brakes in his car, so why should the EFI fail

that only has a different software?

 

Most problems will be related to wiring or self fabricated parts and I can

say like Nick I have the MS in use for years and never got a major problem.

Each year I used to drive to Italy and the last years I did nor carry a spare ECU

with me although I have one for each of my two TRs.

 

It seems to be more a fear from unknown more complicated electronics

than a realistic expectation of breakdown of EFI.

 

I can say with the time a EFI driver will learn to rely on the system.

He will forget that there is something strange under the bonnet because

this system works with no trouble. If done properly also the boiling fuel

problems are fully gone.

 

I would carry a laptop to check with me and a fuel pump.

Also it is helpfull to understand what is going on in the EFI.

The founders of MegaSquirt thought that it is a good idea to

solder the ECU itself to get an impression what is built in.

 

I did a lot with WEBER DCOE both on race engines and street cars.

May TR was also equipped with WEBER 40DCOE.

Also I have a quite complete set of jets to do the setup and the starting

equipment WEBER sold to their dealers.

 

So I have good experience with both and I would prefer to use the EFI system

and I am convinced to get every combustion engine to work with it.

[marki]

Hi Richard.

The engine work was carried out by a well renown engine builder with years of triumph experience. The bores are +20 thou a mild road cam but I think the major power gain was from the gas flowing of the head.

Fully balanced and lightened flywheel, although this won't give you anymore BHP the pick up will be quicker.

Cheers Mark.

[Richard71]

Thanks Mark,

So does that mean an EFI installation will respond to & enhance whatever engine mods have been carried out?

 

BTW, very nice install, I'm quite envious, well done!

 

Richard.

[marki]

Thanks Richard.

I did try to to make it look like it wasn't a DIY job and took my time, I think you're right it can be mapped to your specific engine and get the best from it.

The guys that did mine wanted to know how I used the car and what fuel I wanted to use. It's mapped on standard unleaded as I found it difficult sometimes to get premium. Apparently you can't mapp it for premium and use standard but you can the other way around.

Cheers Mark.

[Andy Moltu]

 

I wonder why people drive half way round the world with a similar EFI but from BOSCH

in their daily driver and worry what parts might fail in an EFI fitted to an TR.

 

As there are much less parts that are moving in an EFI compared to a Lucas PI

there is less chance to fail.

With the Laptop on bord or maybe the app on the smartphone its possible

to check the incoming data that might cause the EFI to fail.

It is very unlikely that the ECU itself will fail.

Keep in mind that MegaSquirt 2 employs the ECU from modern ABS system.

Nobody expects to loose the brakes in his car, so why should the EFI fail

that only has a different software?

 

Most problems will be related to wiring or self fabricated parts and I can

say like Nick I have the MS in use for years and never got a major problem.

Each year I used to drive to Italy and the last years I did nor carry a spare ECU

with me although I have one for each of my two TRs.

 

It seems to be more a fear from unknown more complicated electronics

than a realistic expectation of breakdown of EFI.

 

I can say with the time a EFI driver will learn to rely on the system.

He will forget that there is something strange under the bonnet because

this system works with no trouble. If done properly also the boiling fuel

problems are fully gone.

 

I would carry a laptop to check with me and a fuel pump.

Also it is helpfull to understand what is going on in the EFI.

The founders of MegaSquirt thought that it is a good idea to

solder the ECU itself to get an impression what is built in.

 

I did a lot with WEBER DCOE both on race engines and street cars.

May TR was also equipped with WEBER 40DCOE.

Also I have a quite complete set of jets to do the setup and the starting

equipment WEBER sold to their dealers.

 

So I have good experience with both and I would prefer to use the EFI system

and I am convinced to get every combustion engine to work with it.

I agree it's different if you have done it yourself and know the set up fully which you clearly do.

 

However the average mechanic probably won't have a clue what to do with a non-standard efi set up and in my experience they often don't have clue with a regular efi set up on a modern car!

 

I'm not knocking efi but raising the point that unless you know how to fault find yourself it can be problematical.

The Lucas PI system has very few failure points in real use (if you exclude blocked fuel pipes which afflict carbs and efi too)

1) Pump failure - £35 generic Bosch equivalent in the spars kit.

2) Blocked injector. Carry a spare and a cut down air bed adaptor to blow it clear.

3) Split diaphragm - carry a spare.

4) |Failed plastic drive dog (although this seems to be much less common these days to the point that you wonder if it got the blame for the unwary forgetting to put it back when they had been tampering!)

 

Yes the metering unit seals eventually go but this isn't usually a breakdown - more a loss of efficiency.

 

My retirement project is likely to be a TR250 to convert to RHD and put on efi but I'm not sure I'd be in a rush to do a long European trip in it in the way I would in the 6.

[TriumphV8]

However the average mechanic probably won't have a clue what to do with a non-standard efi set up and in my experience they often don't have clue with a regular efi set up on a modern car!

 

I am happy that we made a swap with a clubmate who is familiar with his TR6

but never did anything with electronics and never did a carb or PI setup.

 

He is able to "read" the data on the laptop in case of fault and maybe solve the problem.

As these systems do not fail we did not practice a real test.

 

Anyway the BOSCH motronics are made not to read much from the system and only

pass the OBD2 information they are forced to let out by the law.

 

The MS opposite is made to provide all the data for understanding, setting and check.

So you get the information fully and can easily check if something is wrong.

 

Also you can cut out damaged parts, for example the wideband-controller that will

correct the mixture over the whole fuel table. If it reads nonsense the engine will

stumble and quickly you can switch it off and continue to drive.

 

So it helps to do the whole EFI work by yourself but even when only being able to

connect the laptop to the ECU you can see a lot and repair many things.

[marki]

30 years ago a good friend of mine couldn't understand why I started to drive Toyota's, the parts are so expensive he'd say. Buy a Ford and bits are dirt cheep. Supply and demand sprang to mind. He couldn't see that I didn't need any parts.

He now still drives a Ford.

Mark.

[Nick Jones]

Quality gap between Ford and Toyota has closed up alot since then.

 

We ran a Mk1 Focus from 8 to 14 years old and it was faultless. Unlike the Mk3 Golf GTI that preceded it. Friend of ours had a 1.6 Corolla that was using 1L/500 miles of oil by the time it got to 60k. Common problem apparently.

 

Nick

[Stag powered]

I have now got three engines running on megasquirt, two Stag V8s and a Rover V8.

The ability to easily get a base map for the Triumph 6 cylinder is its greatest advantage, I had to start with a Rover V8 base map for my stag engined cars so it takes a lot more fiddling about to get everything up and running correctly.

Also the fact that the six engine has a decent inlet set up already fitted is a massive advantage against the stag engine where I had to build my own inlet manifold.

 

If I still had the straight six in my TR250 I would keep the individual throttles if I was running a long duration cam. The Twin plenum Rover V8 in my Toledo has a long duration cam and transmission shunt at low revs is a pain in traffic.

Personally I find the ability to keep tweaking the megasquirt every time I try something different with the engine or exhaust without the need for a rolling road visit is a great advantage and cost saving. Mixture set up can be done by driving and data logging (never had much luck with a closed loop system), and the rolling road is then just needed to get the best out of the ignition timing.

I have just revised the exhaust system on my Toledo and gained massive amounts of mid range torque, the mixture responds by going very weak in the areas where there is a big gain in breathing ability from the engine. This is then corrected by adding more fuel to the required sites.

Did the same thing with my Stag engined TR250 this winter, didn't gain much as yet but it is in preparation for the next engine I am going to build for it which will hopefully crack the 250bhp mark. I am getting 246bhp out of the engine in my Stag on regular unleaded so I am hoping that with a bit more compression and a dose of super unleaded it is a realistic possibility.

 

 

Regarding the mapping for different fuel types, what has been mentioned about regular and super unleaded is correct. You can map for regular and still use super, but don't expect better performance. Filling my Stag which is mapped for regular unleaded (despite a 10.5 : 1 compression ratio) knocks about 12-14bhp off its power figures as it would need far more ignition advance.

On the other hand my Rover V8 which also has a 10.5 compression has to run on super unleaded as it suffers horribly from pinking on regular unleaded even if timing is retarded back to after TDC.

Oddly enough it needs far more than the standard advance to run on Super or is as flat as a fart, must have a lot to do with the different burning characteristics of the different fuels

Cheers

Neil

[Nick Jones]

With MS, some firmware versions allow two ignition maps which you can switch between with an external switch. So you could have a map for 95 and another for 98 - or even LPG.

 

Knock sensors are another possibility but much harder to get working properly.

 

I use the rolling road to check the fuel mapping is safe in the big throttle / high rpm areas that are risky/illegal to reach on the road. Also by far the best way to get the ignition timing right.

 

Nick

[Peter Cobbold]

 

On the other hand my Rover V8 which also has a 10.5 compression has to run on super unleaded as it suffers horribly from pinking on regular unleaded even if timing is retarded back to after TDC.

Oddly enough it needs far more than the standard advance to run on Super or is as flat as a fart, must have a lot to do with the different burning characteristics of the different fuels

Cheers

Neil

Neil,

That is very odd indeed.

Octane doesn't affect flame speed.

http://motorcycleriderz.motionsforum.com/t196-octane-is-not-how-fast-a-fuel-burns

 

Peter