Jump to content

Roll bars please vote


Recommended Posts

Would fail inspection for FIA etc if the cage is integral to the chassis.

 

Classed as strengthening and multipointing that is illegal.

 

I think you may be over reading it Tom, I just checked into the MSA "Blue Book" and defined the following items which were as I remember when I last competed back in the 90s

 

Page stating that ROPS (Roll bar) mustn't spread further than the forward and most rearward points of the suspension -

 

And a diagram showing the fitment and connection points of a typical cage where it clearly states the bars can go onto the chassis.-

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Mick Richards

post-6602-0-77222900-1476999760_thumb.png

post-6602-0-16954400-1476999861_thumb.png

Edited by Motorsport Mickey
Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks for the help guys ?!?!?

 

Oh and Mick be careful using screen prints - it may give away some internet history ????

Link to post
Share on other sites

Reading this all with interest.

My understanding is that Neil is correct. As i have access to several FIA spec cars which have the cages bolted through the body to the chassis. On TR to the cill brackets on the chassis.

 

Although things do change so bow to Toms knowledge him having been around the production of new FIA built cars.

 

Regs do change so as i said will be reading this post with interest. Dalas that Neil mentioned will / should be able to clear this up.

 

ROY

Link to post
Share on other sites

The roll bar info I posted was from this years 2016 FIA "Blue Book" online regs.

 

Thanks for the reminder Hamish but I thought the shown information was sufficiently bland to show to all.

 

Mick Richards

Link to post
Share on other sites

Just for the record this is what I am the new custodian of as of this summer.

And what I'm trying to prepare should I decide to go back to sprints etc

Following new head gasket and new starter motor.

I think the roll bar is the last major bit( this may in form which harnesses) as the current are old 3 point harnesses. And I need 4 point. Fire wall aluminum sheet done. Just needs re- sealing.

H

Edited by Hamish
Link to post
Share on other sites

Reading this all with interest.

My understanding is that Neil is correct. As i have access to several FIA spec cars which have the cages bolted through the body to the chassis. On TR to the cill brackets on the chassis.

 

Although things do change so bow to Toms knowledge him having been around the production of new FIA built cars.

 

Regs do change so as i said will be reading this post with interest. Dalas that Neil mentioned will / should be able to clear this up.

 

ROY

Roy I am, confirmed by THE man today ;)

Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Hamish, nice looking car!

 

Pleased you started this debate :lol: ?

Confused.........I am !

 

Perhaps the experts would like to summarise for a numpty like me :wacko:

 

Iain

Link to post
Share on other sites

Iain thank you.

Not sure there is a definitive answer !?

But the chat seems to rule out the revington version with the 4 legs all on the inner wheel arches. Which is a step forward for me.

So it's racetoration or the Corby motors versions ? That bolt via the floor on or close to the chassis????

See above web links.

H

Link to post
Share on other sites

Well not an expert but the book says Rops (roll cage) can be fitted to shell AND chassis on mounting points as long as within the highest part of front suspension and rearmost parts of rear suspension.

That's how my TR4 was fitted out back in 1988, the script I believe is identical.

 

Mick Richards

Link to post
Share on other sites

.

Edited by Motorsport Mickey
Link to post
Share on other sites

Ah the car and earlier times when we needn't worry about ROPS and harnesses

This is me circa 1992 ish I was lucky that dad shared his car. Until I beat him at colerne !!

Then I got stuck into 2 wheels

Now safely back on 4 wheels and the TR is my way back into club sport. But as you can see I need ROPS guidance through lack of experience of them !!

:-)

Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Hamish,

 

I have gone through the same decision making process. I hope I may be able to help. You guys on the Forum have been invaluable in getting me back up to speed after non TR ownership (or any classic car) for 27 years. Time to put something back.

 

The products from both firms are 'top drawer'. It depends on what you want.

 

The Revington bar will be slightly easier to fit and you can rest assured that being designed by Neil, it will be fit for purpose. At Castle Combe yesterday, Neil reminded me that such a bar did its job admirably when John Welburn infamously rolled and destroyed his TR2 at Goodwood in the 1970s.

 

I plumbed for a Racetoration bar for the following reasons.

 

When I had the bodyshell off my TR4, in my previous ownership 30 years ago, I cut off the tubular body mountings and welded in place hefty box sections which I bolted the body and roll bar to. The bolt holes are in exactly the same place as a standard car. I can't utilise that old roll bar now but I can use the box sections in a roundabout manner.

 

The front feet of the Racetoration bar drop down onto the floor just in front of the wheelarch. In the bar's rearmost position (seat has to go right back because of my height), the feet sit about 2-3 inches rear of the body to chassis holes. The feet are in perfect alignment with the mounting holes so it might be possible, if the driver is short, to move the whole bar (and seat) forward to utilise the mounts. Ensure your head doesn't hit the bar if you move it that far forward though.

 

I made up steel plates, 5 mm thick, which I bolted to the floor using the body mounting holes and then bolted the feet of the bar to that with another plate underneath the floor. You could do the same with the standard mountings. Not quite as good as being bolted direct to the chassis but much better than just to the floor. In the case of a roll, 5 mm thick plate wouldn't be as likely to bend as 3 mm plate which I used for all the other reinforcing plates.

 

The Racetorations bar gives a bit more triangulation than the Revington bar but the most appealing aspect is the option to fit the side bars and underdash bar. The improvement in chassis rigidity is remarkable; the safety aspect obvious. The side bars can easily be removed in a couple of minutes for the less agile and they are cleverly shaped to allow the window winder to be used with the door closed.

 

The Racetoration bar is also superbly engineered and the front hoop is a masterpiece, utilising the existing front body mounts. It is a lot of work to remove the whole dash and steering to fit it though. The sides of the metal dash panel have to be modified to avoid hitting the hoop. About two inches of metal has to be carefully removed, bit by bit, until it fits back in. You can retain the glovebox but will have to cant the speedo and rev counter by 45 degrees because the top mountings for those instruments foul the bar. The ignition and indicator lights on the dash have to have their plastic bodies (behind the dash) shortened.

 

I only recently finished the job which took about 40 hours to do, mainly making up the plates, apart from the dash dismantling and reassembly. Before doing the job myself I took the car to Safety Devices to design and fit basically the same bar. They quoted over £2500.

 

Yesterday, the scrutineers at Castle Combe checked out the installation. They were 'more than happy' about its sturdiness. They acknowledged that the MSA Yearbook requires the plates on the front feet to be welded to the reinforcing plates/floor but for SPEED EVENTS ONLY they would not enforce that. They also acknowledged that a TR4 doesn't even have to have a bar fitted for such events so anything fitted is a benefit.

 

Some other thoughts. The Racetoration bar is wider than the Revington bar at shoulder height which is important if the MSA regulations are to be met. Both bars allow the hood to be folded which means if you are tall, once wearing a crash helmet you will not satisfy the 5 cm required between top of helmet and bar. Clearly the scrutineers are not enforcing these rules as Neil informed me that nobody has been penalised at the Sprint and Hillclimb events for any roll bar infringement.

 

The Racetoration bar has only one threaded hole in the harness bar. I believe the Revington bar has two. To satisfy the MSA rules you must have two anchor points so the Racetoration bar must either have another fitted or do what everbody does - just loop the belts around it.

 

I must admit to being concerned that until I get a proper headrest mounted - I am fitting a Lotus/Spyder item which involves some welding for the mounting plate - in a roll the back of my skull would probably be shattered by smacking into the bars. That will soon be resolved though.

 

Anyway, I absolutely adore my Racetorations bar. It is effective, smart and unobtrusive. Most people standing beside the car don't even realise that the side bars and hoop are fitted. I do get constantly asked though, why my instruments are canted over. Most people think it is a racing thing.

 

I do have a complete photo record of the installation if you or anybody else would like to see it. Send me your email.

 

John Hanna

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi John,

 

Do you have another one of the "mullered" TR gearboxes (with working A type overdrive) left that you used to fit to your race TR with the V8 SP250 engine in it ? (that's what "mullered" the gearbox ).

I've used the last one I bought off you via the TR Register "clear all the debris" International weekend auction (I think it was at Donington on the Melbourne loop when the original TRS was demonstrated there by Rod of Nostalgia cars and at sale for £9000 ! ! ! ) back in the early 80s.

 

Oh how they laughed when I bought the overdrive gearbox from you for £7 "... that Mickys at it again, always comes staggering back with some used knackered TR bits, ... they're not laughing now !

 

Mick Richards

Edited by Motorsport Mickey
Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Mick,

 

I'll give you a tenner for it. that's nearly a 50% profit!

 

Could do with an overdrive box now. Did 200 miles on the M4 yesterday, to and from Castle Combe, in the old gal. At 70 mph (confirmed by sat nav) revs were just over 4000. Probably explained why the plastic dynamo pulley disintegrated just after coming off the motorway.

 

I spent four hours broken down, stranded in a remote lane near Taplow. Could have been much worse. The TR Register breakdown Insurance proved useless and I had to arrange alternative rescue. My phone call to the brokers in the morning will be 'interesting' to say the least.

 

Watch the Forum tomorrow for my vent of anger if their explanation proves unsatisfactory.

 

John

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Following up on my reference to the TR Register's breakdown insurance failing to rescue me I have been in contact with Greg of A Plan. A glitch in the system caused my membership not to be recognised when I called the breakdown service. This has now been rectified so nobody else is affected. It was basically a case of the computer saying 'No' and there was no way around it. Because my breakdown occurred at night it was not possible to sort it out on the phone - even A Plan's out of office hours service failed to sort it.

 

Greg has dealt with this brilliantly and compensated me for my expenses and trouble. I was confident that was going to happen as they are an excellent team with our TR interests at heart.

 

John Hanna

Link to post
Share on other sites

Pleased they sorted it out.

Sometimes things go wrong. The real test is how someone deals with it !

Well in this case by the sound of it

H

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 1 month later...

Just my luck. Left it too late ????

Budgeted for Xmas etc and ready to order my roll bar and Darryl at racetorations says they are out of stock of his TR3a roll bars. Damn it ???? my own fault. Will have to see when he gets more made. End of January I hope.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 4 weeks later...

Gents.

For Sprints and Hillclimbs under MSA Regulations cars built before 31st December 1961 don't require ROPS. For Roadgoing Series Production Cars of any age ROPS are recommended in accordance with K1.6.1 and K1.6.2. The Blue Book does not mention chassis probably because it is written with reference to modern cars!!

Link to post
Share on other sites

"For Sprints and Hillclimbs under MSA Regulations cars built before 31st December 1961 don't require ROPS. For Roadgoing Series Production Cars of any age ROPS are recommended in accordance with K1.6.1 and K1.6.2."

This is acknowledged and covered in previous post 13 and 14

 

In any case whatever the speed event a roll in a Sprint or Hillclimb will kill just as effectively as a roll in full race event, I'd suggest even for road use given the likely appalling consequences of even a low speed roll a roll cage cage should be fitted before buying an alloy rockercover or other bling for the car.

"The Blue Book does not mention chassis "

 

Oh yes it does ! refer to the diagrams in previous post 26, Chassis is mentioned on the diagram quite clearly.

 

My work here now is done Batman, :P lol

 

Mick Richards

Link to post
Share on other sites

Update

Alan Goodwin at Revington TR has saved the day.

He has commissioned a ROPS for me. As they didn't have much stock that would meet my needs either.

I now have on order a roll bar with removable diagonal and harness

bar.

 

I have gone with the Revington style as due to this wonderful club a fellow Red Rose member has sold me a pair of ridgard bucket style seats with headrests and runners. They are a tight fit so ROPS door bars are now off the agenda.

 

So steadily all the sprint comp requirements are being ticked as well as my safety wants.

 

Fingers crossed Revington can deliver in a few weeks and that I can get to the odd sprint after all this.

 

????

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

Please familiarise yourself with our Terms and Conditions. By using this site, you agree to the following: Terms of Use.