Help with buying a TR2

[EdwinTiben]

HI,

 

good to see progress !!

 

in my signature theres a link to my tr2 rebuild blog on google. i took pictures of almost every detail i have been working on to get the car in the shape i wanted. as much factory standard with a few improvements.

 

i try to answer some of your Q's below.

 

 

Hi Again.

 

The car was not sold at its asking price and even though I initially decided to step away owing to the apparent cheap and incorrect restoration I have decided to indeed have a look and buy the car if we can come to an agreement.

So I would like to make another list of things I know about the car plus a question or two to guide me in making a better decision.

I have decided that I would not go over about 17 000 GBP thinking I can spend about 5 000GBP to make it much, much better without feeling bad about it as I think almost all issues are in the interior trim.

As reference, an excellent non-exact restored 1957 TR3 was recently offered to me at 25 000 GBP and a badly half-restored ,missing pieces hybrid TR2 was offered at 11 000 GBP.

 

The info I have shows me that it will not be a bargain, but it is a car that I want and there are not many choices here in South Africa. I have set my heart on a TR2.

Currently a semi-educated guess indicates perhaps 20-30 driveable TR2s remain in the country and certainly fewer than 50 making any one hard to find and I'd expect good ones to be extremely rare.

 

QUESTIONS:

1: Can one one just get a correct TR2 inside door panel or is the whole door different between TR2 and TR3? I am not sure if this car has TR3+ doors fitted or if its just the panels that are TR3A.

 

it looks like a tr2 door to me, later doors have a rounded front lower corner which need a different door panel.

 

I am not sure how the screws the keep the panel in place work with the door itself. I would assume that there are pre-drilled holes in the door and the position and amount seems to change from TR2 to TR3 and TR3A.

 

they are pre drilled holes, probably when fitting new panels it would be the easiest to drill new holes when a panel is fixed to the door with a fine drill.

 

2: Is there a simple way to tell which car the overdrive gearbox comes from?

 

a lot of overdrives have been exchanged with later types. the number on the gearbox should match the buildnumber or engine number. If fully syncronized its probably from a tr4. if overdrive only on the 4 its early tr2 (up to Ts60xx), after that its on 2, 3 and 4 gears.

 

 

3: Can one cut and paint the steel beading to resemble the original colour-coded TR2 beading, assuming one can't find correct beading anymore. Other options?

there are beading available for classic beetles which match the small original beading, but they are of plastic instead of the fabric ones. but becayse they are less wide, its harder to cover any large panel gaps.

there shouldnt be a beading next to the section of the bonnet. there are 2 pieces, one between front apron and wings and a little piece in front of the doors.

 

Changes to the car:

It was restored in 2000 but is an original TR2 chassis and body in straight and good condition. Front brakes are still the original drums.

Good , keep it that way

"Upgrades" seem to be a girling rear axle, a TR3 engine (TS17xxx) and an overdrive gearbox. (These now seem like solid good and not even uncommon changes during TR2 restorations)

Also fine

I think the TR17xxx engines are already high-port?

yes, from TS13XXX on

 

I believe some extra support/strengthening was added to the chassis. This also seems to match a standard restoration practice.

 

Obvious errors easily fixed (These fixes seem cheap enough easily coming in under my 5 000 fixes guess).

Small instruments are almost all wrong replacements and in wrong positions. (So this can be fixed over time finding working Jaeger instruments)

yes they are available on the web, buy the ones with domed glasses !

 

Speedometer and Tachometer are non-original but seem to be close to correct TR2. Also fixable if required)

the tr2/3 have large housings, later ones are smaller , less deep

 

Indicator switch seems missing.

you can buy new control centers allthough to my taste a bit too shiny, perhaps you can source an old working one? or a broken one and try to fix yours ?

 

Door panels seem to be from a TR3A By the shape of the door pocket and amount of screws.

dont know, the square corner looks ok, could be home made?

 

There are non-standard switches and some in the wrong place ,like the simple flip switch for Overdrive and the choke is not on the instrument panel. Easily fixable too.

Carpeting is badly done. (I know one can get full carpet sets that seem not too expensive)

Leather trim in the dashboard and around the top edges of the cockpit is wrong and would need to be redone, although the seats look fine.

these can be done by yourself. i bought a complete car trim kit from John Skinner.

 

 

The air-cleaners on the carbs are wrong and there seems to be one or two small things around the engine bay. Washer bottle?

it would be an option to have a washer bottle, so probably its not there, because its not fitted from factory?

 

I wouldn't really buy this car as an investment because I want to own and enjoy driving one and research shows this car is solid and usable ,not needing anything mechanical

 

I expect there will be fair maintenance but I am happy to learn to do this myself (what I can't do already) and the support seems even better than a modern car!

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 3, 2017 by EdwinTiben

[irrational]

Thank you Edwin ,that answers a lot.

 

I have gotten a quote from John Skinner and if I do get to buy the car I will certainly obtain full re-trim and carpet kits from him as the total is very decent, even choosing the best materials.

The commission number on this car is TS6425, so overdrive was not original. I would assume TR4 box perhaps ,or I think Herald? Since we tend to drive very long distances here, easily 300km - 500km at a time, overdrive is a very sensible thing.

 

It will be a fun hunt for proper instruments. I will certainly checked for domed glass instruments then. 8).

I will keep an eye out for the beetle beading. Thank you for the tip. I think the panel gaps on this car is good, so it shouldn't be a problem. I'll see this weekend and measure them.

[EdwinTiben]

HI,

 

i would opt for the stainless beading and have it painted ! less prone to crack than the plastic ones, was my theory

 

http://www.justaircooled.co.uk/wing-beading-25ft-choice-of-colours.html

 

Herald gearbox wont fit the tr engine, have had a herald estate, complete different ballgame than tr series.

 

skinner is very reasonable. there were some flaws which i was able to correct myself but hes always willing to help.

the most difficult part was the draft excluder which i had to redo

 

https://goo.gl/photos/BLQYbTiUCXJvgdDk9

Edited January 3, 2017 by EdwinTiben

[irrational]

I have to ask some silly questions before going to drive the car

 

Rust is really unlikely in this car, but I know where to feel and look.

I spoke to a friend of the deceased former owner that knew the car a few years ago.

He assured me the car was very solid at the time and is on the club registry, so it should be a fairly safe bet.

 

What should I look for when driving the car?

I do not know how a TR should feel. Taught? Little vague? Body flex? Balance? Brake performance on all drums? Brake pedal feel? Clutch and gearbox feel? Throttle response?

I do not know if it has the original steering box , but I have not driven a cam and lever car before ,so I am not sure if I can tell if its ok. I assume its a bit more heavy and vague than rack and pinion?

I am not sure how to know if the overdrive is working as it should. I have only driven a MGB GT with overdrive for top gear long ago ,so no idea how to use it on multi-gear overdrive.

Anything I should look out for? Especially on the small instruments?

[Lebro]

Answers in order:

Usually a little vague, but soon get used to it

Some body flex, hardly noticeable

If you mean brake balance - should be good

Drums are not the best, tend to fade if used to reduce serious speed.

A fair bit heavier than a modern car

Clutch - depends on condition a worn clutch will feel pretty heavy, a new one not too bad compared with modern

Don't rush the gearbox, give the synchros time to work. probably no synchro on 1st

response should be good if carbs etc set up properly

A lot heavier than a modern, & quite a lot heavier than say a TR4

check the vagueness by turning the wheel when stopped, ½" of movement would be considered OK, much more than that & needs checking out

O/D operation same as MGB, only it works on 2nd, 3rd, & top

Keep an eye on temperature gauge, don't let it get beyond 3/4 of the way up, oil pressure should be 70 ish at 2000 RPM, could drop to 10 on hot idle.

 

Enjoy !

 

Bob.

[BlueTR3A-5EKT]

I have to ask some silly questions before going to drive the car

 

Rust is really unlikely in this car, but I know where to feel and look.

I spoke to a friend of the deceased former owner that knew the car a few years ago.

He assured me the car was very solid at the time and is on the club registry, so it should be a fairly safe bet.

 

What should I look for when driving the car?

I do not know how a TR should feel. Taught? Little vague? Body flex? Balance? Brake performance on all drums? Brake pedal feel? Clutch and gearbox feel? Throttle response?

I do not know if it has the original steering box , but I have not driven a cam and lever car before ,so I am not sure if I can tell if its ok. I assume its a bit more heavy and vague than rack and pinion?

I am not sure how to know if the overdrive is working as it should. I have only driven a MGB GT with overdrive for top gear long ago ,so no idea how to use it on multi-gear overdrive.

Anything I should look out for? Especially on the small instruments?

I know of a full restoration TR2 Red, Wires, o/d, drum brakes, with Girling axle nearing its finish that will go for sale.

If interested PM me - It is in the southern counties of England.

 

Peter W

[irrational]

Hi Peter.

Thank you. I am, however, in South Africa. 8)

 

I haver stepped away from the original TR2 with the photos. I was not prepared to do a full restoration and then end up with a hybrid.

There were just too many things wrong. Thank you for everyone's help which allowed me to make a much better decision.

 

In the meantime I miraculously managed to find another TR2 quickly, which I am very interested in.

This one is a genuine overdrive, almost completely original TR2. It has seen some use and is currently out on a farm. So its quite dusty and oily, but it drives well and everything works.

The interior is still fully original but very dirty (except perhaps the carpets) and quite good, but the body needs some work. It had a body off respray 25 years ago. No extra work was done.

Side screens, top and tonneau are original with 1 screen broken. Needs some minor fixing.

The car also has the original Owner's Manual and a Workshop Manual.

Which brings me to a further question.

 

This one has a good amount of rust under the sills (See attached). I expect this is not a real problem to fix up? The wheel wells and pillars are fine as far as I can see.

Bear in mind that here the air is very dry, so most rust is just surface. Currently I am thinking budget wise of a 12 000GBP buy and a 5 000GBP fix. I Am not interested in making a concourse car, so a basic clean and proper repaint with rust fixes are what I am aiming at. This should make the car last for many years if done properly with maybe a future interior fix if warranted. I think the "completeness" of this car makes it worth pursuing.

 

Any comments?

 

[Don H.]

Much more interesting car IMO, irrational. I like originality. The sills/rocker panels are very repairable -- but despite a dry climate and apparently only surface rust, rest assured it'll be worse than you think. It always is.

 

I've not seen "TPC" on a commission plate before. Interesting.

 

From what one can see, there's a lot to like about this one as a candidate for a "sympathetic" restoration.

[Guest]

Looks to be a good start, far better than the previous one. Complete is the key work indeed. Sills can be repaired. Like Don says, it can be worse than you see. Great thing about these cars is that you can repair almost everything. It's not like Porsches where you find layer on layer of sheet metal with havoc in between. Lot of the money to spend will go to labour costs. Do try to find a decent repair guy, but be sure that you realise how much hours it will take (costs) to repair stuff. A lot of all the work can be done at home1

 

Check the floor under the carpets, especially under the pedal box (moist and brake fluid spillage) and look for rust where the floorpans meet the sill. If needed make a plan how to attack this.

 

Oil is good. Where's oil there's no rust! Mechanically, these cars can take a lot of abuse. After all, it was a agricultural engine in the first place. Treat it like a Porsche engine when you fire it up after a long time. Oil pressure is the magic term here. Try to find info on that here on the forum.

 

Here's a tip: try to find a company that uses dry ice for blasting! Google it first. Dry ice will clean acres of the car, including interior etc without too much hassle and dirt! Dry ice can also be used as a blasting medium to expose the spots where you've found rust. These dry ice blasting companies can be found near factories for processing food products (fruit, wine, diary)

 

Keep those pics coming! It will be a fun project!

 

EDIT: according to google, it looks as if SA is the international market leader on dry ice equipment. Who would have guessed that!

Edited January 22, 2017 by Menno van Rij 2

[EdwinTiben]

Dry ice, or soda blasting?

 

it looks like a couple of mm thick bondo layer on the outside of the sill ?

 

probably when you take of the wings, you'll find more... something like this: https://goo.gl/photos/pEStatEaRJUVjXTF6

 

crappy google doesnt permit pictures in posts anymore...

Edited January 22, 2017 by EdwinTiben

[iain]

 

 

From what one can see, there's a lot to like about this one as a candidate for a "sympathetic" restoration.

 

Looks as Don says a good bet. More photos would be great to see. Overall looks a good find.

I am sure Stuart will de code TPC....Local assembly I would think.

 

Iain

[Guest]

 

 

Dry ice, or soda blasting?

Dry ice

 

Menno

[irrational]

I did not take a full inventory of photos as we are in early discussions.

I still need to fit and check the roof and side screens for instance.

 

I like the dry ice clean idea. A good clean will do wonders!

 

Here are some more photos. I neglected to do a closeup of the small instruments. But will do in future.

 

The obvious "faults" as far as I can briefly see are:

1: Weird headlights

2: The water temperature gauge is a replacement. The others seem to be correct with the bubble glass Jaeger/Lucas.

3: No grab handle

4: The grill seems weird. Like it does not fit correctly either. Can someone maybe post a photo of the upper part of a fitted TR2 grill?

5: The boot locks are round. I believe this TR3A? The TR2 should be leaf shaped? Maybe its a local quirk, as the other one I looked at was also round.

6: One of the sidescreen's window panes is broken. Sadly this seems recent and likely due to dirt road bounciness. 8(

7: No correct tool for opening. The guy uses a screw driver!

 

The obvious "goods" for me:

1: Correct original beading

2: Owner's manual

3: Unmolested car

4: All the interior trim seems present

5: Good instruments. All working.

6: The overdrive is immediate and smooth and original

7: It drives well. Steering and brakes are good and the engine feels very torquey and pulls strongly. I managed to pull off in 2nd perfectly fine. The gearbox is notchy but true. So very usable.

 

I am not sure if this interior is a faded "Stone". Or white? White wasn't an interior colour on Red TR2s I think. So I am a little confused. Is this what "Stone" looks like? More like "Bone" to me. 8)

[Alec Pringle]

For £12K equivalent you don't go nitpicking . . . . . . that's resto project, not driver, money these days.

 

Cheers

 

Alec

[foster461]

Regarding the driving experience, these cars have a very 1950's feel. The large steering wheel is there because the steering is heavy at low speeds. Steering should not be that vague but you will notice the lack of castor. It will feel like you can never relax and must continually steer the car. You will also need to suppress the grin otherwise people will think you are demented.

 

Stan

[Don H.]

If you're looking for originality and a car that you can keep running, this one seems a good candidate from what you've reported and shown. If you're going to keep wanting to make it better and set a higher standard of restoration/conservation/presentation, your £5k budget could easily triple by the time you're done.

 

It's almost always cheaper to buy a restored car than do one (unless there's a LOT you do yourself)!

 

You really need to think about your objectives in owning the car, irrational, and what will make you happy. There will be dozens of things that aren't "right" on a car that's been kept running far from home for sixty years. Don't get hung up on it unless that's your thing. If it is your thing, the condition of body and trim and all the details will get worse as you live with the car and notice more.

[Hamish]

Go for the cross continent bike that's in the picture. Looks like a newer version of the BMW 1150GS adventure I used to have.

No really. I sold my bikes and can to the classic car fold. Now with my TR3a it's not perfect but I'm very happy with it and we get more fun safer fun than the bikes.

Go for it better than money in the bank

And as has been side before. As long as it's not a complete shed Don't wait for a better car at the same or less money or you'll miss the boat.

Good luck

Edited January 23, 2017 by Hamish

[stuart]

From what I can see I would be very tempted to give it a wash and a service and drive on. At that money thats a bargain. I dont know what the TPC on the chassis plate is for but at a guess possibly original local dealer ID as in Triumph Pretoria Co. Which would point to the car being an import and not a local build which is why there are less anomalies to the car.

If your local inspection rules mean you need to repair that sill then it could be done as just a localised repair.

The round boot catch covers have probably been used as local replacements as they are the same as the spare wheel panel ones. Boot and bonnet hinges have also been replaced as they should be painted not chromed.

Stuart.

[irrational]

@ Hamish

do have 2 motorcycles. 8) An F650GS single for all sorts of things and an R nineT for fun. But my heart lies with classic cars.

And as you say, I do not want to miss the boat. I'd prefer restoring this car to buying a restored one as I will have full control and knowledge about what is done.

 

@ Stuart.

 

That's a very good observation about the "TPC"!

I have found out that the car is indeed imported, as the local CKD cars apparently started at about commission TS7000 and overdrive is very rare for a local one, so it makes sense.

Our club registrar has been helpful and also indicated that the rust is likely worse, but because of the originality, I should really try and make a deal work.

He has indicated about 7500 pounds as a more likely restore budget regarding stripping fixing and painting properly.

If it wasn't for the rust and if the car had original paint, I may have just polished it and kept it as is, but I think it will just be sensible to do proper work now .

So now I just have to wait for the owner to get back to me and hopefully strike a deal.

The owner did say he has a TR3 chassis around as well with the axles and hubs. I am not sure exactly how complete that is.

 

Dirk

[TR 2100]

Dirk -

 

That TR2 is excellent. A survivor.

Be quick. Be very quick.

 

AlanR

[irrational]

With regards to detailed information.

 

I have Bill Piggott's book on Orginilaity, which has been very valuable to me.

I was wondering if there are other books which contain detailed images of the tiny details. A restorer's book I expect.

 

I am looking for a book that would have a more comprehensive explanation with more photos of details on the TR2.

I see Bill has 2 other likely books "In Detail" and "Restorer's Guide" for instance.

 

Recommendations?

[EdwinTiben]

Guide to Originality was very helpfull to me, this site too, scroll down:

http://vintagetriumphregister.org/tr2/

 

Also feel free to look at my photo album, have made a comprehensive set of pictures during the restoration

Edited January 25, 2017 by EdwinTiben

[irrational]

That's a very helpful article, thanks!

 

I find this car very fascinating at the moment as I was assured its very original. (I am going to try buy it regardless of the issues although the process will take a few months)

It has been in one family since 1977 and I was told only had a body off respray 25-odd years ago. (Making it the weird dark red)

 

That said, according to all the originality books and articles I read, there seem to be a mix of cosmetic things from both earlier and later commission numbers, even though everything looks perfectly authentic apart from a missing grab handle and weird grille.

If the car is imported as seems the case, I feel like I have to discount CKD quirks, which makes it even stranger. Perhaps imported from another CKD country though? Is this checkable?

 

The odd things I noticed for this commission number:

chromed hinges (TR3? and Francorchamps)

"toilet seat" boot locks (TR3? CKD? Rebuilt?)

4-louvre bonnet (Older TR2)

unpainted rims (TR3? CKD?)

The starter just says "starter" (Older TR2) but the choke says "Choke Pull" (Newer) - Replaced buttons?

speedometer without dots between the "MPH". (Newer TR2?) The tach has the dots (R.P.M) and what seems to be a faded red line at 5000.

black carpets with light interior and black weather equipment (Strange combination? Although I think this is probably very variable. The boot has a black board in front of the fuel tank. Perhaps indicating an originally black interior?)

The interior colour. It looks white or grey, but this is not an official colour I can find. Perhaps its heavily faded stone? It doesn't seem redone. Maybe the interior was redone long ago as it seems pretty solid with very few scuff marks.

 

Perhaps I should ask Bill Piggott (or whoever can) to see if original records for this car exists? It would be interesting to know.

 

Dirk

[OldBob]

Dirk,

 

The 4 vent / slot bonnet is correct for TS5379, 2 slots were not introduced until TS6157 onwards with the scuttle flap introduction.

 

I also had these kind of queries with my 1955 car and found the TR2 Development History build document which you can get from the Revington TR website to be quite useful.

 

Regards

Bob

[TR 2100]

Dirk,

 

The 'cosmetic' details you mention are both understandable on a

car of this age, and not significant. You can always find correct

original parts. Maybe take a little time, but not a big expense.

 

Like I said above - be quick. Be very quick.

 

Opinions of Stuart and Edwin, two outstanding posters, should be

taken seriously.

 

AlanR

Edited January 26, 2017 by TR 2100