HiTorque starter motor Hmm no thanks.

[ricky30dk]

Please help me, Gents. I fitted a WOSP unit some years ago and have only now gotten round to firing it up. I have connected the fat wire to the solenoid but when I turn the ignition key I’m only getting a click from the solenoid. Nothing at all from the starter. I fitted an extra earth connection from the battery to the engine block and tried rocking the car in gear in case it was jammed, but nothing doing. 

There is a second connector (see photo) on the unit - just above where the live cable connects - should I also connect this somewhere? It doesn’t show any voltage when I turn the key, so it’s not connected internally.....

I dearly hope I don’t have to take it out - it was a total pig to install. 

Cheers 

Richard

Edited March 23, 2019 by ricky30dk
Added photo

[RogerH]

Hi Richard,

There are two ways to wire the WOSP

you should have a Red/White wire going to the original solenoid. This gives power to the fat cable.

Next t where the fat cable attaches to the WOSP body there is a 1/4" spade. This needs to connect to the fat wire.

This spade feeds the internal solenoid of the WOSP

 

OR

 

The Red/White wire in the car loom can go straight to the WOSP 1/4" spade and the fat cable attached as in your pic.

 

Somewhere along the way you need power to the WOSP 1/4" spade.

 

Good luck

 

Roger

[ricky30dk]

Oh my God - it works! You’re a genius - thank you so much.

 I just might get the engine started this weekend.....first time in 15 years....

[GT6M]

Alot oft problemos wid thee,s starters is they were designed t,be fitted in diff cars,

and whenst being altered, the drain hole at the bottom, is no longa at the bottom, but ont side,

this means that they fill up wid water,and rust every thing away.

Look where drain tube is on that wosp for,t top bit, it aint at bottom noo isit,

an would like t,no where drain wol is for,t bottom bit asweel,!!

 

If yer starters no got a drain hole in it, top bit an bottom bit, IN the bottom as its ont car, then tek it off,an re drill wols init t,let water oot,

 

that is of course if folk actually use their cars int wet, or actually wesh their engines doon regularly,!!

original wol ont side, new,n at bottom, also, the IGN wire connector needs turned 180 degs, so it aint being fried by,t exhaust, this,n been changed, most new,ns are like wots on the other pic of the WOSP,n

 

Also in this pic, water had got between main power feed an insulation, an this then turned t,steam  an other orrid thingys, an burnt the ally housing away aroond the power feed hole, had t,weld it back up.

 

There a few folk on flea bay sell,n re build bits for thee,s at reasonable prices.

 

rust inside, which shorts oot the contacts an base plate, brush box, total nightmare.

 

 

 

an if water,moisture gets onto contact ring, then it deffo wont start, it,ll just click.

this bit meks contact wid the 2 brass bits either side, one ont power lead in, other on poer lead t, motor bit,  can be cleaned wid oot tek,n the thing off,

just tek the 3 nuts / screws of end an tek off an clean up,

the inner brass bits also get corroded too, so need t,clean thees too.

No only that, but whenst tightening the bolts up that hod thee,s in spot, they  twist the contacts, so they just touch in the sides, no the full area,

So need t,mek sure they sitt,n flat, by using some dykum blue or similar stuff

 

 

 

Since re drill,n wata holes in reet orientation for starters mounting as it is noo,

never had any moer problemos

meb,e of some help t,some body woe is gonna , or have,n  probs wid them

 

M

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 24, 2019 by GT6M

[stuart]

I have had one self destruct too!

Stuart.

 

[Rodbr]

I have had a WOSP one fitted for 4 years or so and it has never given a problem (thats put the kiss of death on it now) I don't wash my engine with water not drive through massive puddles but I can see that perhaps lack of drainage could be the issue. Also my tubular manifold is close to it so perhaps it drys up quickly.

It would be interesting to correlate those failures to those using original exhaust manifold and those with tubular.

I don't want to remove it as I have just built the transmission tunnel up after replacing the overdrive solenoid etc.

The only reason I fitted it was to get the car running as I had to move out of the garage I was using. I carriage quotation for sending my original to the repairers was £80 each way at the time and it made sense as the Wosp was only £179. This was considerably cheaper than the repair cost and shipping.

I have three or four original starters for rebuild and went to the trouble of drilling my bell housing which I then had to seal again. Ho hum! one day Rod

one day!

[foster461]

2 hours ago, stuart said:

I have had one self destruct too!

Stuart.

 

Is that the same unit that started this thread in 2016 or a different one Stuart ? Either way I am underwhelmed with the quality of these starter motors.

 

 

 

 

[stuart]

17 hours ago, foster461 said:

Is that the same unit that started this thread in 2016 or a different one Stuart ? Either way I am underwhelmed with the quality of these starter motors.

Yes it was Stan.

Stuart.

[RogerH]

26 minutes ago, stuart said:

Yes it was Stan.

Stuart.

Have you rebuilt it yet !!!!!

Looked like jigsaw puzzle

 

Roger

[stuart]

4 hours ago, RogerH said:

Have you rebuilt it yet !!!!!

Looked like jigsaw puzzle

 

Roger

Ha ha it wasnt even any good for bits so it all went in the scrap!

Stuart.

[snibble27]

Hello all. I'm an auto electrician and spend most of my time building rotating machines. I stumbled upon this whilst researching something else and thought I'd add my two pen'orth. Connecting the main supply and solenoid connection and feeding them through the external solenoid. I find on test that this can hold a starter engaged due to the motors generated back emf. Usually for a second or so, but of course my test bench doesn't actually drive the starter. I strongly suspect that this may be the source of the centrifugal damage (and it is centrifugal, not bad manufacture) that so many of you guys are seeing. I find that the only weak point with these starters is the rapid wear of the fixed solenoid contacts, but they're only pennies and easily changed.

[Lebro]

That sounds logical.  I have always promoted using the original solenoid as a relay to activate the motor mounted solenoid, & have permanant 12V on the motor connection.

Bob

[greasemonkey]

8 hours ago, snibble27 said:

Hello all. I'm an auto electrician and spend most of my time building rotating machines. I stumbled upon this whilst researching something else and thought I'd add my two pen'orth. Connecting the main supply and solenoid connection and feeding them through the external solenoid. I find on test that this can hold a starter engaged due to the motors generated back emf. Usually for a second or so, but of course my test bench doesn't actually drive the starter. I strongly suspect that this may be the source of the centrifugal damage (and it is centrifugal, not bad manufacture) that so many of you guys are seeing. I find that the only weak point with these starters is the rapid wear of the fixed solenoid contacts, but they're only pennies and easily changed.

So the external solenoid should not be used??

Phil.

[RobH]

3 hours ago, greasemonkey said:

So the external solenoid should not be used??

Nobody has said that Phil. In fact it, or a high-current relay, MUST be used since the engagement solenoid of the starter takes a high current - up to 40 Amps depending on the type - which is far more than is safe for the starter switch alone.

This drawing shows what 'snibble' means -  in the first arrangement the starter motor and its engagement solenoid are both connected to the car solenoid. He says the motor can continue to feed its own solenoid by back - emf because of the link.  In the second arrangement the car solenoid feeds only the engagement solenoid so there is no link.  (the starter engagement solenoid has its own contacts which switch power to the motor).

 

Edited December 13, 2021 by RobH
typo

[Ian Vincent]

13 hours ago, RobH said:

Nobody has said that Phil. In fact it, or a high-current relay, MUST be used since the engagement solenoid of the starter takes a high current - up to 40 Amps depending on the type - which is far more than is safe for the starter switch alone.

This drawing shows what 'snibble' means -  in the first arrangement the starter motor and its engagement solenoid are both connected to the car solenoid. He says the motor can continue to feed its own solenoid by back - emf because of the link.  In the second arrangement the car solenoid feeds only the engagement solenoid so there is no link.  (the starter engagement solenoid has its own contacts which switch power to the motor).

 

An excellent explanation Rob. Thks.

Rgds Ian

[Bfg]

On 12/13/2021 at 9:25 AM, snibble27 said:

Hello all. I'm an auto electrician and spend most of my time building rotating machines. I stumbled upon this whilst researching something else and thought I'd add my two pen'orth. Connecting the main supply and solenoid connection and feeding them through the external solenoid. I find on test that this can hold a starter engaged due to the motors generated back emf. Usually for a second or so, but of course my test bench doesn't actually drive the starter. I strongly suspect that this may be the source of the centrifugal damage (and it is centrifugal, not bad manufacture) that so many of you guys are seeing. I find that the only weak point with these starters is the rapid wear of the fixed solenoid contacts, but they're only pennies and easily changed.

Firstly I want to say a big thank you to Snibble for registering on this forum to share this expertise with us.   That was very kind of you ..I both Thank and welcome you.

 

15 hours ago, RobH said:

Nobody has said that Phil. In fact it, or a high-current relay, MUST be used since the engagement solenoid of the starter takes a high current - up to 40 Amps depending on the type - which is far more than is safe for the starter switch alone.

This drawing shows what 'snibble' means -  in the first arrangement the starter motor and its engagement solenoid are both connected to the car solenoid. He says the motor can continue to feed its own solenoid by back - emf because of the link.  In the second arrangement the car solenoid feeds only the engagement solenoid so there is no link.  (the starter engagement solenoid has its own contacts which switch power to the motor).

And equally Thank you to Rob for explaining what was being said, with the aid of diagrams, so numpties like myself can see and then check our own cars.

My own TR4A had its high-torque-starter wiring through the car's original button solenoid.  After this car's chassis swap, Mark at M&T very kindly tidied this up by fitting the starter - battery lead off a TR6 (seen below).  NB. The original button starter solenoid has been removed altogether . . .

^ Having just checked this, I'm happy to see the Red battery lead to the starter motor, with a big block connector, into which the brown power cable is connected via a large spade.  The white/red wire (in this case connecting to a scruffy white wire) is run alongside and separately.  This leads directly from the ignition/starter switch to the hi-torque starter motor.

Again my thanks to you guys for the explanation, and the reassurance that it is correct.

Pete     

 

 

Edited December 14, 2021 by Bfg

[Ian Vincent]

I have now checked my high torque starter and it is connected exactly as in Rob's first diagram with the vehicle ignition solenoid wired to the main terminal on the motor with a jumper to the solenoid on the starter.  Its been that way ever since I recommissioned the car in 2014.  How important is it that it is wired à la Rob's second diagram?

Rgds Ian

[BlueTR3A-5EKT]

On 3/24/2019 at 11:05 AM, GT6M said:

Alot oft problemos wid thee,s starters is they were designed t,be fitted in diff cars,

and whenst being altered, the drain hole at the bottom, is no longa at the bottom, but ont side,

this means that they fill up wid water,and rust every thing away.

Look where drain tube is on that wosp for,t top bit, it aint at bottom noo isit,

an would like t,no where drain wol is for,t bottom bit asweel,!!

 

If yer starters no got a drain hole in it, top bit an bottom bit, IN the bottom as its ont car, then tek it off,an re drill wols init t,let water oot,

 

that is of course if folk actually use their cars int wet, or actually wesh their engines doon regularly,!!

original wol ont side, new,n at bottom, also, the IGN wire connector needs turned 180 degs, so it aint being fried by,t exhaust, this,n been changed, most new,ns are like wots on the other pic of the WOSP,n

 

Also in this pic, water had got between main power feed an insulation, an this then turned t,steam  an other orrid thingys, an burnt the ally housing away aroond the power feed hole, had t,weld it back up.

 

There a few folk on flea bay sell,n re build bits for thee,s at reasonable prices.

 

rust inside, which shorts oot the contacts an base plate, brush box, total nightmare.

 

 

 

an if water,moisture gets onto contact ring, then it deffo wont start, it,ll just click.

this bit meks contact wid the 2 brass bits either side, one ont power lead in, other on poer lead t, motor bit,  can be cleaned wid oot tek,n the thing off,

just tek the 3 nuts / screws of end an tek off an clean up,

the inner brass bits also get corroded too, so need t,clean thees too.

No only that, but whenst tightening the bolts up that hod thee,s in spot, they  twist the contacts, so they just touch in the sides, no the full area,

So need t,mek sure they sitt,n flat, by using some dykum blue or similar stuff

 

 

 

Since re drill,n wata holes in reet orientation for starters mounting as it is noo,

never had any moer problemos

meb,e of some help t,some body woe is gonna , or have,n  probs wid them

 

M

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

MG had the soggy starter motor problem and fitted a waterproof cover. Same style starter as pre engage on TR5/6

 Pt no BHH790.  https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/254275647499?mkrid=710-53481-19255-0&siteid=3&mkcid=1&campid=5338306792&toolid=10001&customid=mp-shop&mkevt=1

[PodOne]

Hi all

So what would be the wiring arrangements for a 1969 TR6 using Wasp starter which I bought before I perhaps knew better, yes I've read the above and wish I'd reconditioned the OEM one which I'll do as a spare when the time comes !!

As far as I can understand there was is no separate solenoid as with the TR4 any idiot proof wiring diagram using the existing loom appreciated.

Thanks

Andy 

[RobH]

5 hours ago, Ian Vincent said:

I have now checked my high torque starter and it is connected exactly as in Rob's first diagram with the vehicle ignition solenoid wired to the main terminal on the motor with a jumper to the solenoid on the starter.  Its been that way ever since I recommissioned the car in 2014.  How important is it that it is wired à la Rob's second diagram?

Not very important Ian in my opinion - my own is like that too (because it was easy) and I've never experienced any problem either. I think 'snibble' was only offering a possible explanation for the failures seen in the early posts on this thread.  It is up to you whether you feel it is worth changing things after that time, but anyone doing a new installation might as well wire it the second way. 

[stuart]

29 minutes ago, PodOne said:

Hi all

So what would be the wiring arrangements for a 1969 TR6 using Wasp starter which I bought before I perhaps knew better, yes I've read the above and wish I'd reconditioned the OEM one which I'll do as a spare when the time comes !!

As far as I can understand there was is no separate solenoid as with the TR4 any idiot proof wiring diagram using the existing loom appreciated.

Thanks

Andy 

Connect it the same as you would an original, you dont need the jumper link as its the same as an original with the solenoid on top of the motor so the small red and white goes to the solenoid..

Stuart

[RobH]

11 minutes ago, PodOne said:

As far as I can understand there was is no separate solenoid as with the TR4

As Stuart says, the original pre-engaged starter has its own solenoid so doesn't need an external one.  However, some of the new high-torque starter solenoids draw around 40Amps when they pull in, which is more than the original starter and a bit much for the long-term health of the ignition switch contacts, so it is a good idea to have a high-current relay to do the switching rather than overload the ignition switch itself. 

 

[PodOne]

44 minutes ago, stuart said:

Connect it the same as you would an original, you dont need the jumper link as its the same as an original with the solenoid on top of the motor so the small red and white goes to the solenoid..

Stuart

As Stuart says, the original pre-engaged starter has its own solenoid so doesn't need an external one.  However, some of the new high-torque starter solenoids draw around 40Amps when they pull in, which is more than the original starter and a bit much for the long-term health of the ignition switch contacts, so it is a good idea to have a high-current relay to do the switching rather than overload the ignition switch itself. 

Rob

Thanks Stuart/Rob

I'll add a relay rather than slow cook the ignition switch.

Andy 

Edited December 14, 2021 by PodOne
Robs useful information

[ianc]

The ideal relay is the solenoid with push button, as fitted to TR2/3/4 (Moss BCA4501), which is rated to carry the high current drawn by the standard starter motor.

And, because it has a push button, one can easily carry out compression testing without the need to get into the car to operate the ignition switch.

Ian Cornish

[snibble27]

17 hours ago, RobH said:

Not very important Ian in my opinion - my own is like that too (because it was easy) and I've never experienced any problem either. I think 'snibble' was only offering a possible explanation for the failures seen in the early posts on this thread.  It is up to you whether you feel it is worth changing things after that time, but anyone doing a new installation might as well wire it the second way. 

That's a fair answer. I think that like so many things, it's dependant on the individual case. Some engines you just think about turning the key and it's running, others you have to crank and crank with bags of throttle until it jumps into life like an electric drill. I wouldn't say that connecting the B+ and sol connections is "wrong", but it's not best practice.