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Hi All.

Next year I'm probably going to have my car converted to EFI. Having a look around for the best options, I'm no whiz with electronics but handy with a spanner so was wondering if there are kits available to buy and so called bolt on to then have mapped on a rolling road ?

I'm hoping to then sell my PI gear so would look at changing the throttle bodies rather than altering them to fit.

Cheers Mark.

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No good idea to get rid of the own manifold with six plates.

I drove several systems and I am absolutely sure that the

way Triumph went was the best way although with the 260

degree cam a single throttle is possible.

-Better refurbish and use it-

 

I would read in the MegaSquirt Forum and manual and

make a decision than. There are some nasty steps that

you will have to do anyway as there is the perfect fuel supply

to establish quite different to the PI.

 

The soldering and softwarework on the EFI is bulletproof and

as it is cheap and can be tested with the stim before killing the engine

I would give it a chance. You can be a MegaSquirter from 200 GBP

so not that expense if you fail........

 

Best way for TR6 is the MS2 with VR sensor and Innovate AFR controller

and the PI manifold. All in all you may end below 1000 GBP.

 

Rolling road is built into that EFI system, you do not need that.

 

Many users are here or at Sideways and happy to help.

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Hi Guys.

If I went for the single throttle body I'm guessing it would require me altering the existing bodies to,take the injectors removing the butterflies and fixing the new throttle to the end of the plenum ?

Or am I over thinking it's simpler than it really is ?

Thanks for the replies, Mark.

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Hi Guys.

If I went for the single throttle body I'm guessing it would require me altering the existing bodies to,take the injectors removing the butterflies and fixing the new throttle to the end of the plenum ?

Or am I over thinking it's simpler than it really is ?

Thanks for the replies, Mark.

Simple.....until the throttle butterfly drops off.......and the ignition switch is on the steering lock....so the engine can't be switched off.

Peter

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Peter,

every modern car has a single throttle body. NIck's used one from a modern, a Peugeot, I think.

How many time do you hear of the butterfly dropping off?

It doesn't happen.

 

Marki,

If you read NIck's story, he fabricated an intake plenum. See my link above.

John

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Guru......? :blink: Nah!

 

I did my Vitesse about 11 years ago

http://www.tengaston.plus.com/Megasquirt1.htm

Website shamefully out of date. I added distributorless ignition after a year and upgraded the ECU to MS2 in 2009 to get barometric correction (for playing in the Alps), but other than that I've not messed with it other than to re-tune it last year when the engine got a complete upgrade. Total mileage on it must be 40k+ now and it's been faultless.

 

The single TB approach was absolutely fine for the standard cam. However, now I'm running a hotter cam (300º inlet 280º ex is fairly hot) the single TB seems to produce a "hitching" effect at very slight throttle openings and < 2000 rpm. This conspires with drive-line shunt to make trickling along in traffic a bit trying. However, it clears immediately it's given any throttle and is much less bad than I was warned to expect by several experts, one of whom reckoned it would be undriveable on the road...... If you are planning a cam of more than 280º duration I'd suggest keeping your separate throttle bodies.

 

When I did my PI I kept the standard throttle bodies, but removed the butterflies and put a single TB on the end of the plenum. That worked well with the standard early PI saloon cam (the 132 bhp one) and with a few other fairly minor mods that engine made 148 bhp with a very flat torque curve.

 

Here from post #10

http://sideways-technologies.co.uk/forums/index.php/topic/5167-nick-mk2-pi/

 

Nick

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Hi John.

That's the sort of thing I was thinking, especially as we're half way there with the plenum and bodies.

No I can't see why the butterfly would fall off either.

Cheers Mark.

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Simple.....until the throttle butterfly drops off.......and the ignition switch is on the steering lock....so the engine can't be switched off.

Peter

 

Peter does have a point here and it was something that did bother me a bit. I did have it in mind to modify the plenum to bolt it to the throttle bodies but ended up selling the car first.

 

Point being, especially when using manifold pressure as the engine load sensing, were the plenum to come adrift from the throttle bodies, even partially, it would be directly akin to the throttle sticking open. I did have a few problems initially getting a complete seal on the 6 rubber hoses and also had to patch some pinholes in the plenum itself but only to the extent of a raised idle. Worth considering if you decide to go this way - a relatively small risk, but with potentially nasty consequences. It can certainly be engineered out without too much trouble.

 

Nick

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Hi Nick.

I do have a slightly hotter cam, so perhaps not a single TB ?

Mark.

 

Depends what you mean by slightly hotter?

 

It's not very hard to retain the original Triumph butterflies and even the linkages (though there just has to be a better linkage!), drill out the injector pockets to take modern injectors and add the fuel rail (as per my PI mods in the link above). They are a bit big really which makes the mapping a little trickier but people seem to manage OK. Andreas certainly gets great results.

 

I like the simplicity of the single TB, but I reckon I've found it's limits with my current cam.

 

Nick

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Blowing a throttle body off the end of the plenum is not impossible. If the mixture filling the manifold and plenum -several litres - lights up in a backfire it can bend 1/4 thick aluminium. My blower-to-engine manifold has that volume and did bend the ali plate (ca 0.5mm between two studs 3 inches apart) in a backfire, and there was no boost at the time.

I would make an ali plenum, bolt it to the manifolds, ditch the rubber hoses. And bolt the TB solidly to the plenum.

Peter

Edited by Peter Cobbold
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We have a guy here in Germany who built a customers car with single throttle plate and

shot the plenum off twice. As he is reading here maybe he will give a comment if that were

the only backfires with that manifold construction and how he managed to overcome.

 

I had a lot of backfires with my TR during setup but they all did no harm because only one cylinder

and only the part between inlet valve and throttle plate exploded what is a really small amount. On the

single throttle body the whole plenum can be filled with explosives what is 20 times more stuff than the

little backfire in one runner. Thats the reason why the whole plenum pops off.

 

Below is a nice backfire at 1:00 what lifts the DCOE a bit from the manifold because its fixed

with springs. So no harm if only one small runner fires but definitely an explosion.

 

 

I would not focus on these backfires, they are rare.

 

The main difference between one throttle plate and six of them is how they "civilize" an engine.

If its a really tamed engine the six plates will not be necessary because its already tamed by the cam.

On the other hand they do no harm. From 280 degree cam on the engine really benefits from six plates.

 

Taming in this case means providing a more stable idle, better pickup between 1000 and 2000 rpm and the best and really a good reason to use is the better response to the throttle. With the single throttle you will never get that crispy response on a quick pedal push. You can fiddle hours on the accel fuel but it will keep that typically hesitation of a fuel injected car. A Weber DCOE engine doesn´t have that and a proper six plate not, too.

 

As nothing is for free the price is that both the PI and the EFI will respond on a proper setting of the

sync of the 6 plates. The better the sync the less the fuel consumtion and smoother the running.

No good EFI result with worn spindles or levers!

 

 

 

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Jenveys are mountain territory. No doubt they are pretty nice.

Also the Weber EFI throttle bodies are very nice.

 

Both are that precise that they are better than a stock and refurbished PI.

Also you can obtain them in 40mm plates what suits TR6 perfect.

 

The only thing that you should keep in mind is that a pipe connection between

the cylinders is a nice add on that makes things easier. They make sync life easier

and if you are a little bit away from equal the engine still works reliable.

Jenvey and Weber often do not provide that.

 

Like I said above, the hotter the cam the more this tube connection has a bad effect.

So many race systems dont have that. By the way that might be the reason why the

CR has two of them and CP only one. The CP has the hotter cam.

 

You should have a budget. I noticed people fiddeling with the EFI and wanted to lay

back and look how the finest parts fly into their engine compartment and than

suddenly noticed that the swap runs out of budget and was completely stopped.

 

If you take the finest parts and EFI and parts all ready to fit you might end beyond 4000 GBP

If you do cheap Charly and do all the work by yourself you can end below 500 GBP

Edited by TriumphV8
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Quick update.

Had a few correspondences from Emerald, and they are putting together a price for a complete kit, getting rid of the dissy and basic mapping. They appear very professional and have done quite a few 6's. As ever it depends on price what I go for.

I'll let you know, Mark.

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If I could 'piggy back' a couple of questions on this subject......

 

Regarding the high risk but low likelihood event of a butterfly coming off or the more likely event of a backfire blowing the plenum off and going WOT, couldn't this be negated by having an ignition or fuel pump 'kill switch'?

 

The other question is regarding a MAF. Most of the systems I am familiar with (admittedly from the mid 80's to mid 90s vintage) use some sort of MAF on the intake side. Does MS not require this?

 

Actually, I've just thought of a third question! Does anyone have the distances, centre to centre, of the injectors for the purposes of making a fuel rail?

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Regarding the high risk but low likelihood event of a butterfly coming off or the more likely event of a backfire blowing the plenum off and going WOT, couldn't this be negated by having an ignition or fuel pump 'kill switch'?

I think not because I do not see the sensor info that MegaSquirt knows what has happened. The only thing is a proper set limiter. MS offers a temperature related limiter so that you can set a cold engine to be limted to lets say 3000rpm what does no harm. If you go for alpha-n what is metering relying on the throttle position, the engine will simply stop because there is a mismatch of requiered fuel/full throttle and offered fuel from MS/idle fuel.

 

The other question is regarding a MAF. Most of the systems I am familiar with (admittedly from the mid 80's to mid 90s vintage) use some sort of MAF on the intake side. Does MS not require this?

It can use a MAF but MS provides three ways of metering. Alpha-n unses Throttle position & rpm. Speed density uses Manifold pressure, air temperature and rpm. And the last is the MAF sensor where any sensor can be calibrated to suit. I do not like MAF because there is something in the airstream and speed density works up to 290 degree cam.

 

Actually, I've just thought of a third question! Does anyone have the distances, centre to centre, of the injectors for the purposes of making a fuel rail?

Fit the manifolds to the head and put the injectors in and measure from cylinder 1 to each of the 5 injectors not to add the mistakes. Make two measurements by pressing them together and measure and pull them away from each other and take the middle. The injectors have a little play in the manifolds

to compensate for a little mismatch. ROSS offers a nice fuel rail and a special driller to drill the perfect hole in one step to accept the injector

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Watching this thread with interest!

 

I do love the old pi system but have also thought a distributorless ignition and fully mapped RFI would be a cool project.

 

Looking forward to seeing your progress Marki.

 

Steve

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I do love the old pi system but have also thought a distributorless ignition and fully mapped RFI would be a cool project.

 

 

Easiest way for distributorless ignition is EDIS6 second hand and Megasquirt 1 for about 300 GBP all in all

what is much much better than 123 and easy to set in several steps to make life comfortable.

 

http://trigger-wheels.com/store/contents/en-uk/p9.html

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Easiest way for distributorless ignition is EDIS6 second hand and Megasquirt 1 for about 300 GBP all in all

what is much much better than 123 and easy to set in several steps to make life comfortable.

 

http://trigger-wheels.com/store/contents/en-uk/p9.html

Cheers Andreas, that might be next winter's project sorted!

 

I guess the difficult part would be the crank sensor, I'll have a search but guess fitting a 36-1 to the lower crank pulley and the sensor to the timing cover would be the way to go?

 

Steve

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