Barn Swallow

[2long]

I have just removed the seats, and have been treating them with food for a while now. It is an interesting case here of some nice survivor-type patina on old leather seats, but probably old in the sense of a decades old redo rather than original. The pan and frame construction looks to be high quality and its too bad the slightly flimsy frames on my TR2 are not so substantial!

http://s1221.photobucket.com/user/aupuni/slideshow/Seats

 

Cheers

 

Dan

Edited June 6, 2016 by 2long

[stuart]

Hi Stuart! Can you explain what indicates undertorquing? I just thought it was **** metal used for the halfshafts.

 

Cheers

 

Dan

The hub has been fretting against the shaft as it wasnt tight enough hence the wear pattern you can see.Sloppy or hard gear changing will do that.

 

Stuart.

[2long]

Now I am on to the left hand side, and the axle, hub and bearings are all as toasted as the right hand side was.

Splines look close to letting go:

The hub has a weird crack all around the inner splines, maybe from some metal spinning around in there:

The axle tube is a bit like a dirty black hole that threw up a little in its mouth:

Here is some of the upchuck - these bits looked like petrified grease but they are all metal, include a light weight spring thing:

I guess some of the bits are the casing for the oil seal, but why would a spring be in there? Any idea how to clean out the hole without removing the differential?

 

Cheers

 

Dan

[BlueTR3A-5EKT]

Now I am on to the left hand side, and the axle, hub and bearings are all as toasted as the right hand side was.

Splines look close to letting go:

The hub has a weird crack all around the inner splines, maybe from some metal spinning around in there:

 

That is not a crack it is the split taper locking collar that should be removed, cleaned, oiled and refitted when you torque the hub nut up. It locks the hub to the half shaft - fail to do it will make for wear....just like you have on the outer splines.

Item 51 on this page. http://www.moss-europe.co.uk/shop-by-model/triumph/tr2-4a/clutch-transmission-drivetrain/axles-differentials/lockheed-rear-axle-tr2-tr3-to-c-ts13045.html

 

Cheers

Peter W

 

The axle tube is a bit like a dirty black hole that threw up a little in its mouth:

Here is some of the upchuck - these bits looked like petrified grease but they are all metal, include a light weight spring thing:

I guess some of the bits are the casing for the oil seal, but why would a spring be in there? Any idea how to clean out the hole without removing the differential?

 

The spring may have been part of the oil seal to tension the leather seal lip to the hub. To clean out, what about a half moon plate on a stick like you use to unblock sewage in drains.

Cheers

Peter W

 

Cheers

 

Dan

Edited August 10, 2016 by BlueTR3A-5EKT

[2long]

Thank you Peter! Wow, I sure feel foolish for not figuring that out. I completely missed that it is a separate piece, so I will have to recover them from both of my old hubs. Is that NLA locking collar a piece that is likely to wear and need replacing if I have the kind of advanced half shaft wear found on my car? I guess I will have them removed and cleaned for a close inspection, but that is a part I didn't expect to have to track down!! Is it a machine shop job to remove and replace them, or as you suggest, once it is removed I can just install it as I tighten the big castillated (s?) nut?

 

Cheers

 

Dan

[Alec Pringle]

Hi Dan,

 

tube or pipe bushes come in all sorts of shapes and sizes . . . . . a spiral wound brush, if necessary fixed to an extension rod, can gently rotate an awful lot of rubbish out.

 

for example - https://hillbrush.com/en-GB/Categories?ffacet2=Tube+Brushes

 

Then jack up the other, opposite, rear side of the car, and spray kerosene into the axle tube from the original, lower, open end - gravity should flush out anything remaining.

 

Repeat for the other axle tube.

 

Then drain the diff, remove backplate and wash out the diff internals with kerosene - don't leave it to soak in there (or in the axles tubes), won't do the seals any good, just a kerosene wash then refill with oil.

 

Cheers

 

Alec

[BlueTR3A-5EKT]

Thank you Peter! Wow, I sure feel foolish for not figuring that out. I completely missed that it is a separate piece, so I will have to recover them from both of my old hubs. Is that NLA locking collar a piece that is likely to wear and need replacing if I have the kind of advanced half shaft wear found on my car? I guess I will have them removed and cleaned for a close inspection, but that is a part I didn't expect to have to track down!! Is it a machine shop job to remove and replace them, or as you suggest, once it is removed I can just install it as I tighten the big castillated (s?) nut?

 

Cheers

 

Dan

Dan,

Just leave the hub soaking in diesel or some penetrating oil for a day or two then the thing might just tap out with a brass drift. The taper collar is part split so it works as a collet to lock the whole lot in place. (same deal on MGB axles) It is worth wanging the hub up with the nut and a big washer before fitting the taper collet to affect the final assembly. The collet locks it all in place, pre load it all without the collet to seat the bearing nicely.

As I have said before be sure to check your chosen seal fits the hub as there are two different sizes.

I think the bearing is the same as the tail shaft of a non o/d gearbox SP75G or 6206. Get one with a shield so the grease does not get washed out by the oil in the axle.

Cheers

Peter W

[Alec Pringle]

Early TR2s utilised 500031, same as the Mayflower hub, whereas later TR2s switched to the shielded 110059 - Stanpart numbers, the R&M equivalents were LJ30 and LJ30D (shielded).

 

The unshielded LJ30 was the rear bearing in gearboxes for all the larger Triumph and Standard saloons, and the TRs, overdrive or non-overdrive, SP75G was a later Stanpart number.

 

The LJ30 was found in various other applications too, notably some of the Rootes boxes of the 1950s, again as gearbox rear bearing.

 

If you google for LJ30D you'll find the cross references easily enough - https://www.google.co.uk/#q=lj30d+bearing - but note that prices vary hugely, so shop around !

 

Cheers

 

Alec

[2long]

Thanks very much Peter and Alec! My only excuse for not noticing the locking collar is that I am used to the TR2 Lockheed wire wheel hubs, which has a very different type of locking collar that is not mated to the halfshaft splines. I am so glad I learned this tidbit before I buttoned it up incorrectly!

 

Cheers

 

Dan

[BlueTR3A-5EKT]

Thanks very much Peter and Alec! My only excuse for not noticing the locking collar is that I am used to the TR2 Lockheed wire wheel hubs, which has a very different type of locking collar that is not mated to the halfshaft splines. I am so glad I learned this tidbit before I buttoned it up incorrectly!

 

Cheers

 

Dan

Dan,

 

I am sure the same internally spllned taper collet locking collar is used on both steel and wire wheel cars to locate the hub on the half shaft. It is why you need the screw on hub puller to get the wire wheel hubs off, as the split taper collar locks itself tighter in place as you extract the hub from the half shaft, even though you have removed the hub nut and washer. - on steel wheel hubs you have access to poke/prod/lever the collar off the axle shaft ahead of the hub.

OE part number of the collar is 108608. Lockheed axles only.

As the owner of a Lockheed axled car I became intimately acquainted with rear hub removal to replace bearings and seals.

 

Cheers

Peter W

[BlueTR3A-5EKT]

Early TR2s utilised 500031, same as the Mayflower hub, whereas later TR2s switched to the shielded 110059 - Stanpart numbers, the R&M equivalents were LJ30 and LJ30D (shielded).

 

The unshielded LJ30 was the rear bearing in gearboxes for all the larger Triumph and Standard saloons, and the TRs, overdrive or non-overdrive, SP75G was a later Stanpart number.

 

The LJ30 was found in various other applications too, notably some of the Rootes boxes of the 1950s, again as gearbox rear bearing.

 

If you google for LJ30D you'll find the cross references easily enough - https://www.google.co.uk/#q=lj30d+bearing - but note that prices vary hugely, so shop around !

 

Cheers

 

Alec

Spot on Alec.

You even found a NOS R&M item LJ30D in Arizona....

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/NOS-R-M-Rear-Wheel-Bearing-for-Triumph-TR2-/221224494008

 

Peter W

PS MGB, AH super slugs (BLT BN BJ etc) cars used the SP75G too, again unshielded in the gearbox.

Edited August 11, 2016 by BlueTR3A-5EKT

[Alec Pringle]

It might also be worth looking for an LJ30DD, double or both sides shielded in other words.

 

I've replaced the standard bearings in BMC A-series axles with single and double shielded bearings in the past, and it does make a considerable difference towards keeping oil inside the axle and out of the brake assemblies - the A-series axles were not good at retaining oil in competition useage.

 

Cheers,

 

Alec

[Alec Pringle]

" OE part number of the collar is 108608. Lockheed axles only. "

 

That agrees with my references too, same collar for disc or wire wheels . . . . . and no, I don't know of a source of new ones, time to start hunting, Dan . . . .

 

Cheers

 

Alec

[2long]

Well, this whole discussion has proven two things. First, this forum is awesome. Second, I will not be quitting my day job.

 

Cheers

 

Dan

[Paul Hogan]

Dan I have sent you a pm. re your axle.

 

hoges

[2long]

Moving along with a little positive progress.

 

Trying to get the hydraulic system rebuilt, addressing lots of corrosion, leaked and crystallized Glycol, fractured brake and clutch pipes, and incorrect master cylinder replaced with a rebuilt used one (I still need to put my dust protector bellows on):

The right front brake and hub system is getting cleaned and refurbished:

The right rear has lots of issues, needing a new Lockheed half shaft, hub, and locking collar (Neil Revington has used ones), but its getting there:

I have just now started dismantling the left side so I have lots to do.

 

Cheers

 

Dan

Edited August 17, 2016 by 2long

[stuart]

Looking good Dan.

Stuart.

[BlueTR3A-5EKT]

Dan,

Thanks for the info.

The exterior diameter of the hub seal does not change and the hub seal housing is the same on all Lockheed rear axle cars.
The bit that changes is the diameter of the hub seal area.
I have both types of rear hub seal.
103811 for cars unto TS5555 & 109543 for cars from TS5556 to TS13045 (All Lockheed type axles)


The bit that changes between the two is the internal diameter of the seal - the area that does the sealing.

103811 unfitted measures 1.445" - that would fit a hub of 1 1/2" seal area diameter. - I am guessing here as I do not have hubs to measure
109543 unfitted measures 1.556" - that would fit a hub of 1 5/8" seal area diameter. - I am guessing here as I do not have hubs to measure

The exterior diameter of both seals is as you have shown, about 2 1/4 ins.

So you can see the issue here - A bigger (later type) internal diameter seal will fit with a smaller (earlier) diameter hub but will never seal. There is no firm technical reference for which size seal to use with wire wheel hubs either as they can be retro fitted in service.

If in doubt try the seal on the hub before you assemble anything.

As I have said before my TR2 had hubs of different sizes left to right so getting the correct seal required testing and measuring. I once assembled two new seals into my axle only to find one side sealed but the other was as if it had no seal at all.
Cheers
Peter W

See attached pdf

Lockheed rear hub v2.pdf

Edited August 23, 2016 by BlueTR3A-5EKT

[2long]

Great information Peter, and thanks for documenting it. I have various Lockheed hubs and once I took that inner diameter measurement I found I have an assortment! My Doretti hubs are 1 1/2", and fortunately my replacements hubs as well as the oil seals I got are also 1 1/2. But my spare wire wheel hubs for the TR2 are 1 5/8", whereas the original hubs on my TR2 now are 1 1/2. So if I change to the spare hubs for the TR2 I have to be sure to change oil seals. Thanks again for the help!

 

Cheers

 

Dan

[BlueTR3A-5EKT]

It is all very clear when the bits are in your hands and you know what to look for Dan.

If the seal surface of the hub is grooved or rusty it can be reclaimed with Speedi Sleeve. Lots on here about it.

 

Glad to read that pit fall has been avoided.

 

Peter W

Edited August 24, 2016 by BlueTR3A-5EKT

[2long]

Latest update: I am about as deep into the breakdown as I plan to get, with motor running, the brakes and clutch working, and the differential spins without a growl. The plan now is to start putting it all back together. There is a nice steel panel secured with captive nuts on the rear deck that provides good access to the rear axle area (pictured below). I was also able to read the rear axle number (TS 1201) and the transmission number (TS 1067), so it was nice to confirm those are likely the original drivetrain pieces. I removed the seats to clean them and repair some damage to the stitching.

 

Cheers

 

Dan

[2long]

Well, after over 25 years the Doretti moved under its own power today! Just about 14 months after I got it, and a year to the week since I got the engine fired up. I'm chuffed.

 

I got an invitation to bring it to the annual First Hawaiian International Auto Show, so it lit a fire under my arse to go on and get her going already.

 

Only pity is that 1041 looks about exactly the same as when I got her, except a little cleaner and I know things underneath are much happier!

 

 

Cheers

 

Dan

[TR 2100]

Looking gorgeous.

 

Hope she drives as well as she looks - it's not always the case.

 

AlanR

[2long]

Made it into the arena and positioned for the show under its own power. Freaking amazing for me, so I thought I would share. Here is the set up for this weekend:

 

 

Cheers

 

Dan

Edited March 23, 2017 by 2long

[Don H.]

...Only pity is that 1041 looks about exactly the same as when I got her, except a little cleaner and I know things underneath are much happier!...

 

I think the originality is the BEST part of the whole project, Dan. Well done!