Semi and Mineral

[Peter Cobbold]

Why not have a chat to the engine man about why he thinks his recommended oil is better then a high zddp oil.

+1

[john.r.davies]

Thank you, Peter!

That diagram is so informative I post it here.

 

 

 

So this is true of Triumph parts? Sloped and crowned? Even if only very slightly.

John

Edited January 29, 2016 by john.r.davies

[Guest ntc]

https://www.opieoils.co.uk/t-common-synthetic-car-engine-oil-myths.aspx

[marki]

Interesting read.

Thanks Neil.

[Guest ntc]

Interesting read.

Thanks Neil.

Your welcome and they know what they are talking about.

[Don H.]

Your welcome and they know what they are talking about.

 

What makes you think that, Neil? Their comments are OK, I guess, although not terribly informative. A few of their comments seem either not completely clear or commercially biased. I'd consider that FAQ from Opie one source among many. They don't treat the subject of flat tappet protection at all.

 

"The major oil manufacturers do not make oils that attack seals; seal manufacturers ensure that their products function correctly with modern lubricants." As far as I know oils and hydraulic fluids -- the factory fills included -- include compounds designed to "swell" elastomeric seals to keep them softer and to improve their sealing. As a polymer chemist, I'd consider this a form of "attack", differing only in degree. It's attack in a good way, though.

 

"...the right types of synthetic oil are a cost-effective way of retaining ‘as new’ performance." That sounds like pure marketing hype.

[Peter Cobbold]

https://www.opieoils.co.uk/t-common-synthetic-car-engine-oil-myths.aspx

Synthetic oils are compatible with younger-than-1975 oils, yes, - that is what that says.

It does not say synthetics are backwards compatible with engines older than 1975, which is what we want to be certain about.

I am certain my cam/tappets/rings are OK because the ZDDP content is in there as it was when the engine was designed in '60s.

http://theshopmag.com/features/how-properly-lubricate-classic-engines

 

Marki need to know what 'anti-scuff ' chemistry is used in the recommended synthetic. Boron maybe? - I dont know. Hopefully his rebuilder will.

 

Peter

Edited January 29, 2016 by Peter Cobbold

[Guest ntc]

Don

Do your homework chap closer to you than you know.

[john.r.davies]

Gnomic as ever, Neil.

John

[Alec Pringle]

" they know what they are talking about "

 

You may very well think so.

 

My experience of lubricant retailers is rather different - nowadays as a retail customer, in the past as a motor factor and motor sport participant.

 

If I want up-to-date technical information and/or advice I'll source it from the manufacturer, not from retailers or wholesalers.

 

In recent years I could have trashed a BMW engine and a Honda engine and a Honda gearbox if I'd followed the guidance of online lubricant retailers . . . . . . being a cynical sod, I chose to cross check with the oil manufacturers, and discovered well-known online retailers talking bollocks.

 

Lubricant technology evolves continuously, the fact that then then new Brand X version 1.1 was ideal for an ABC engine a decade ago does NOT mean that current Brand X 2.2 version is equally suitable for that same engine today . . . . . and in some instances, it can be disastrously inappropriate.

 

Caveat emptor, and yes indeed do the homework. That means more than retailers' sales puff !

 

Cheers

 

Alec

[Don H.]

My homework is done, Neil. I use Valvoline VR1 Racing SAE 30 oil in my car.

http://www.valvoline.com/auto-resources/motor-oil-faq-racing

[Guest ntc]

" they know what they are talking about "

 

You may very well think so.

 

My experience of lubricant retailers is rather different - nowadays as a retail customer, in the past as a motor factor and motor sport participant.

 

If I want up-to-date technical information and/or advice I'll source it from the manufacturer, not from retailers or wholesalers.

 

In recent years I could have trashed a BMW engine and a Honda engine and a Honda gearbox if I'd followed the guidance of online lubricant retailers . . . . . . being a cynical sod, I chose to cross check with the oil manufacturers, and discovered well-known online retailers talking bollocks.

 

Lubricant technology evolves continuously, the fact that then then new Brand X version 1.1 was ideal for an ABC engine a decade ago does NOT mean that current Brand X 2.2 version is equally suitable for that same engine today . . . . . and in some instances, it can be disastrously inappropriate.

 

Caveat emptor, and yes indeed do the homework. That means more than retailers' sales puff !

 

Cheers

 

Alec

They are still in the business and dont talk bollocks check out Nascar.

[Crawfie]

This is going to sound really stupid, but do mineral oils have any kind of "use before date" i.e. shelf life ??

[Alec Pringle]

Not stupid at all, far from it.

 

I used to get asked this question as a motor factor, and there was no simple straight answer, and need I add that different manufacturers offered differing views !

 

As some sort of guidance see

 

 

http://www.mobilindustrial.com/ind/english/files/tt-lubricating-oils-greases-shelf-life-recommendations.pdf

 

http://www.total-distributor-partners.com/hseq/guide-to-shelf-life.aspx

 

http://www.carbibles.com/engineoil_bible.html

 

http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/172/lubricant-storage-life

 

http://www.kewengineering.co.uk/Auto_oils/motor_oils_faqs.htm

 

 

that's just a selection from useful websites I have on file. Hope it helps.

 

Cheers

 

Alec

[Crawfie]

Thanks Alec !!

[acaie]

My homework is done, Neil. I use Valvoline VR1 Racing SAE 30 oil in my car.

http://www.valvoline.com/auto-resources/motor-oil-faq-racing

+1 Valvoline VR1 Racing SAE20/50 in my TR7V8.

Edited January 30, 2016 by acaie

[PhilipB]

And Millers Oils' offering for Classic cars

 

CSS 20W60 Semi Synthetic

 

http://www.millersoils.co.uk/automotive/tds-automotive.asp?prodsegmentID=268&sector=Motorsport

 

From their narrative

 

"Application

Use for lubrication of competition engines derived from production engines manufactured between post war period and early 80s. Specially designed high viscosity formulation to protect competition engines running at very high temperatures and/or endurance events. Ideally suited for use in high performance competition engines such as Jaguar, Austin Healey, MG, TR, Aston Martin as well as American V8’s"

[Dave Larnder]

Mineral is as distilled from crude oil. It contains a range of compounds of different molecular weights

 

Synthetic is manufactured, by clever organic chemistry, and could contain molecules of a single size and weight, although they don't to achieve a range of viscosity in response to temperature.

 

Semi(-synthetics?) are a mixture of both.

 

But then all oils are a blend, of different fractions to achieve the desired viscosity and other properties, and the right choice is not mineral/synthetic/mix, but a good quality oil of the correct viscosity defined by the manufacturer and the temperature of the climate you live in. For a TR6 in the UK that's a 20W/50, further North (seeing -20C) 10W/30 or in very cold climates 5W/20.

 

John

John

 

What about hot climates like 40ºC.

Dave

[monty]

Millers 20/50 classic (mineral) in my mildly modified TR4A & Millers 20/50 classic sport (semi-synthetic) in my more modified TR4. Seems to tie in with TR Enterprises comments, which is good enough for me.

[john.r.davies]

The WSM is your friend.

 

TR6 recommended lubricants.pdf

 

John

[DavidBee]

On 2/26/2016 at 8:56 PM, PhilipB said:

And Millers Oils' offering for Classic cars CSS 20W60 Semi Synthetic

Phil, when OGB 800's engine was rebuilt the first time, we used Castrol GTX, like most TR people I knew. But that was in the days ZDDP depletion wasn't an issue for tappet wear.

Nowadays,  for a modified, close-tolerance engine, such as OGB 800 or KST 277, both after a Revington Stage 3 rebuild, I'd go for a semi-synthetic Millers Classic Sport, semi-synthetic 20W60 or Valvoline equivalent, "Durablend", I think (if it can be proven it guarantees the same percentage of ZDDP additive).

Edited May 26, 2020 by DavidBee
Avoid needless repetition

[Andy Moltu]

A decent quality oil with sufficient ZDDP be that mineral or synthetic.

Cheap nasty “supermarket” oil often has a cheapo base oil with hefty additives to give the viscosity range which break down.

The theory is a better base oil mix requires less additives to maintain viscosity. Whether that base oil is distilled or synthesised is open to debate. If the right blend is obtained by distilling or whatever the process is called or synthesised or part synthesised probably isn’t critical. 

Our cars are not built to the tolerances of modern cars and the cruder fuelling means the oil is subject to greater contamination so changing the oil sufficiently often is perhaps even more important than spending a fortune on the oil. We are not going to get 3 years between oil changes! 

I have used Millers Classic Sport semi-synthetic 20:50 for ages. They now do a 20:60 semi but the benefits are probably more in hot climates or if you are expecting to do sustained high speeds such as long continental runs.

Would fully synthetics be better- to prove that would require high mileages in many engines to get a valid answer. 

 

[DavidBee]

On 5/26/2020 at 9:30 PM, Andy Moltu said:

A decent quality oil with sufficient ZDDP be that mineral or synthetic. [...] I have used Millers Classic Sport semi-synthetic 20:50 for ages. [...] Would fully synthetics be better- to prove that would require high mileages in many engines to get a valid answer.

Andy, I see your point. But, it does make me wonder.

Back in the day, I swore by Castrol GTX and that was that. The very thought of switching to synthetic seemed like anathema. But now, I am considering semi-synthetic, as mentioned above.

Benefits seem to be a more versatile oil that copes better with a cold engine and a hot one, as well as incorporating or reinstating, in brands designed for tappet- engined cars, ZDDP. Provided they don't include vigorous detergents that would dislodge waste deposits from an engine's nooks and crannies.

My point is, then, if you are prepared to switch to semi-synthetic, what is preventing you from switching to 100% synthetic, Andy? Why a half-way house? Whether oil is artificially created or a product of nature, it counts as oil nonetheless, with enhanced properties to boot. Or am I mistaken?

 

NB. Since I wrote the above comment, it has occurred to me that dwindling ZDDP was most probably not an issue in the 1980s and 1990s, but increasingly since then. So if fully synthetic does not retail with sufficient ZDDP, you are best advised to go for semi- or mineral. Neil Revington's advice is good enough for me.

Edited June 12, 2020 by DavidBee
Addendvm

[Andy Moltu]

11 hours ago, DavidBee said:

Andy, I see your point. But, it does make me wonder.

Back in the day, I swore by Castrol GTX and that was that. The very thought of switching to synthetic seemed like anathema. But now, I am considering semi-synthetic, as mentioned above.

Benefits seem to be a more versatile oil that copes better with a cold engine and a hot one, as well as incorporating or reinstating, in brands designed for tappet- engined cars, ZDDP. Provided they don't include vigorous detergents that would dislodge waste deposits from an engine's nooks and crannies.

My point is, then, if you are prepared to switch to semi-synthetic, what is preventing you from switching to 100% synthetic, Andy? Why a half-way house? Whether oil is artificially created or a product of nature, it counts as oil nonetheless, with enhanced properties to boot. Or am I mistaken?

Price is a factor- with  3 classics the cost benefit of semi or fully synthetic that is being changed frequently is a consideration. Also you can get Millers semi-synthetic in 20 or 25L containers which reduces the price.  Not sure I would see the extra spent on fully synthetic on the 4A as good value as I am planning to strip the engine down over the winter. When it's been tweaked and run in the call may be different.

To be fair not many were producing fully synthetic 20w50 with ZDDP and  carried a premium price.

An interesting thing thing to note that we gleaned from Millers a few years ago when they had a depot in Leicester was that they sold the same oil under different names for different markets.

So Pistonease 20w50 was the same oil as classic 20w50 but cheaper as it was aimed at the commercial market. These days the garage  market for 20w50s has somewhat diminished.

 

[AndyR100]

I still think it is difficult to look beyond  Classic Oils Heritage 20/50 mineral which appears to be the only one willing to put their name to a ZDDP content on the label at (imv) a fair price.

....... Andy

Edited May 27, 2020 by AndyR100