MRG1965 Posted November 30, 2015 Report Share Posted November 30, 2015 HI All, looking in to buying myself a Christmas present and looking at a mig welder. Looked around earlier in the year, but did not progress the purchase, but now looking around again. I'm looking for recommendation on the options around the quality of the welds and ease of use between gas and gasless mig welders. I'm not looking to spend a fortune around £200 at most for a DIY unit. I'll have to use it mostly outside as my garage is too small to do anything inside with the TR4 in there too. Now I know this leans toward gasless as the wind may blow the gas shield away, but is this really true, other than in strong winds and can't I just put up wind breaks to reduce the issue? I've used a Gas mig welder many, many years ago, but never used a gasless mig welder, although I'm assuming it is similar in principle to a stick welder, just in a coil rather than rods. Main use will be for sills and patching up of the 4 wings plus a little general repair work (wings can be done in the garage on a dry day, sills can't ) using spot and stich welding. Leaning towards Gas as that's what I know... Regards Mark Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RogerH Posted November 30, 2015 Report Share Posted November 30, 2015 Hi Mark, I'm no expert on welders/welding but from my limited experience I would go for a Gas welder. Although the gasless wire generates the shield at the point of the weld the Gas welder provides more gas to flood the area. Having bought a cheap welder back in the 90's (Clarke 100) it was probably a bad buy as there is no finesse to the control. Consider paying a bit more. Roger Quote Link to post Share on other sites
littlejim Posted November 30, 2015 Report Share Posted November 30, 2015 (edited) If you are an ace welder already you could probably handle the gasless. If you are like the rest of us you need the gas one. Still takes a while to get the hang of it. (wire thickness, wire speed, current setting, gas flow, angle etc.) Once the above sorted, a delight to use, and no need for the slag chipping hammer. Edited November 30, 2015 by littlejim Quote Link to post Share on other sites
John Morrison Posted November 30, 2015 Report Share Posted November 30, 2015 Mark, Gas one - honestly, say 130 amp will do all you want, and you can now get big cylinders, Argon mix, from the likes of Adams Gas for a one off £50) Returnable deposit, which is the way to go. John. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TriumphV8 Posted November 30, 2015 Report Share Posted November 30, 2015 Who buys cheap buys twice! Gasless is nothing good, only in case of emergency! Also the ones with gas can be a pain. Would look at some test reports from pleased customers. Well working MIGs do not cost a fortune but a proper gas eqipment and a nice bottle bought, not rented, must be included in the calculation. Also a self darkening helmet is something I do not want to miss. So I would expect to spend above 500 Euros for an item that makes me happy and is easy to handle. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Devs Posted November 30, 2015 Report Share Posted November 30, 2015 I agree. Don't bother with a gasless welder. The gas is there to cool the weld which avoids contamination. Gasless welding results in horrible splattered weld which looks poor, won't give you the correct penetration which results in lack of strength of weld. If I run out of gas, I don't weld. There is little point. Spend as much as you can. I've been welding for some 25 years now. I purchased a £500 welder some 20 years ago which is still going strong,has never broken and never has feed issues either. Cheap welders often result in poor wire feed which takes forever to resolve. The more power you have on tap the better, although you will seldom use it. As above, I recommend you invest in a large gas bottle too. I'd have no hesitation in buying 2nd hand to maximise my investment and get a larger more powerful welder, just as long as the wire feed is good. This one for example on eBay would be perfect and make me happy! http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Sealey-SuperMig-170-1-Mig-Welder-/321931067443 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Lebro Posted November 30, 2015 Report Share Posted November 30, 2015 (edited) +1 for all above posts, after years of struggling to get good welds with my mig (120A rating) using Co2 as the shielding gas, I bit the bullet earlier this year & went for a large Argon / Co2 / O2 mix bottle from Hobbyweld, regulator from ebay (cheap) & I have been amazed at suddenly how easy it is to get good welds ! wish I had converted sooner. Never tried gassless, but I also do arc welding which always has the potential for weld splatter, & holes filled with flux which are difficult to clear, & re-fill with metal. I would suspect that gassless mig is similar. +1 for the electronic (auto darkening) welding helmet too. Bob. Edited November 30, 2015 by Lebro Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AlanT Posted November 30, 2015 Report Share Posted November 30, 2015 There is no problem welding outside in somewhat windy conditions. You just turn up the gas a little. Of course a balmy summer day is nice. It takes almost no gas to get good welds on thin body steel. My fine regulator is on about 25%. It's all down to getting a good local supplier of gas refills. This not so easy now as years back, More stuff about pressure tests etc. As you are not doing this full-time you can use a helmet with the lightest filter you can get. A good welding supplier will help you choose. This helps more than anything else I find. Outside I can see the nozzle and joint through my filter before I start. I just wait a few seconds for my vision to adjust. The scene does not change much when the arc starts. You'd probably not do this if it was your day job. I've used this place for years: http://www.weldairsupplies.co.uk/ Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ian Vincent Posted November 30, 2015 Report Share Posted November 30, 2015 (edited) Mine is Gas/Gasless but whenever I have tried to use it gasless it has been a pain. I paid about £150 for mine (130 amp) from Machine Mart about 5 years ago and it has done everything I wanted. When I was doing a lot of welding I had a large rented bottle but now that I only use it occasionally, I buy the disposable ones. Follow the link to a really useful site about MIG welding - bear in mind the site is sponsored by the MIG welding company so their advice may not be impartial. http://www.mig-welding.co.uk/forum/ An auto darkening helmet is essential Rgds Ian Edited November 30, 2015 by Ian Vincent Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AlanT Posted November 30, 2015 Report Share Posted November 30, 2015 See that's the difference. I own a bottle and it only costs when I get it filled. Don't think you can get these now. When I used disposable cylinders I found they ran out quite quickly and cost a lot. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Tonyloz Posted November 30, 2015 Report Share Posted November 30, 2015 When buying go for a mig welder that has a cooling fan built in,usually called a turbo model. Also ditch the gas canisters and get yourself a gas bottle and regulator,Hobby weld 15 gas is great for car body work,runs cooler and prevents distortion. This is one buy that you don't want to cut corners,if you are welding car structures it needs to be done properly with good weld penetration! Don't buy cheap!! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
barkerwilliams Posted November 30, 2015 Report Share Posted November 30, 2015 Mark, My Clarke 135 TE & Hobby Weld gas cylinders works really well. I use about two 6 cu metres cylinders of gas per 5Kg reel of wire. Don't contemplate the tiny cylinders they don't last more than a few minutes and really cost arm & leg. Alan Quote Link to post Share on other sites
foster461 Posted November 30, 2015 Report Share Posted November 30, 2015 I weld outside if I can. Better lighting and where there is welding there is usually cutting, grinding and painting so it keeps the mess outside too. Never had a problem using the MIG with C25 gas outside. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TRseks Posted November 30, 2015 Report Share Posted November 30, 2015 I use a Clarke 135 which I use 0.8 wire with flux inside for gasless welding, bought it well used second hand but it performs great, it can also be used with gas. I struggle to get good welds but accept it as I dont really weld much. Due to a lot of splatter the welds doesn't look look good but acceptable after using the angle grinder. If I need to do any welding on car bodywork I would definitely get a gas bottle. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Graham Posted November 30, 2015 Report Share Posted November 30, 2015 I'm so glad that most are telling me that gas less MIG is more difficult that Gas mig. My welder does both, but being tight I bought a big roll of gas less mig wire when the gas cylinder ran out and have been unable to produce anything more than bird sh*t welds since………at least I now have an excuse ATB Graham Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MRG1965 Posted November 30, 2015 Author Report Share Posted November 30, 2015 Thanks to all. Seems to be a very clear message throughout, don't skimp on cost, go for the gas version with cooling and upgrade to a larger cylinder and gas works okay outside. Oh and I only have one set of eyes so get a good quality mask. I've looked on e-bay for a few weeks now to see what the price and availability is. Looks like local pickup for the used models due to weight is the norm, but the prices are higher for a used item than I'd expected, compared to the new price, given their age. Will have to see if new or used wins and hopefully without a tall of woe in the new year involving firemen and the insurance assessor! Cheers Mark Quote Link to post Share on other sites
john.r.davies Posted November 30, 2015 Report Share Posted November 30, 2015 I don't know if any welders are without a cooling fan these days, but if there is, do NOT buy it! My first welder was fanless, and after more than a few minutes welding, the thermal cut out would go, and it would take two hours or more to cool down again. A cheap extractor fan strapped to the casing solved that, so for the saving of a few quid gave myself a lot of bother. Yes, to a hired, big cylinder of proper argon mix, and a welder that can carry the cylinder on board. Wheels, of course, make it far more convenient. John Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AlanT Posted November 30, 2015 Report Share Posted November 30, 2015 (edited) This may interest you: John is a full-time vehicle mechanic and is the kind of bloke that takes no prisoners. Edited November 30, 2015 by AlanT Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Kiwifrog Posted November 30, 2015 Report Share Posted November 30, 2015 Who buys cheap buys twice! Gasless is nothing good, only in case of emergency! Also the ones with gas can be a pain. Would look at some test reports from pleased customers. Well working MIGs do not cost a fortune but a proper gas eqipment and a nice bottle bought, not rented, must be included in the calculation. Also a self darkening helmet is something I do not want to miss. So I would expect to spend above 500 Euros for an item that makes me happy and is easy to handle. +1 Gassless is ok for welding broken spades and other garden implements but useless for anything except agricutural repairs on a car cheers Alan Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SeanF Posted November 30, 2015 Report Share Posted November 30, 2015 Hi Roger, I am interested in your comment at #2 above about your Clarke 100 which you thought was not very good. I have a Clarke 100 which I bought on ebay a couple of years ago. I think its more than 10 years old and I taught myself to weld with it. It gets quite a lot of use in my ongoing 6 reconstruction and I think does a pretty good job but since its the only welder I have ever used I have no idea really how good it is. It welds well and I get good penetration etc but I am genuinely interested in what benefits I might be able to get from having a better welder such as a Clarke 135 TE or similar? FYI I use Adams Gas 95% Argon mix and have a Wescol regulator. Many thanks for any advice, Sean Quote Link to post Share on other sites
swood1 Posted December 1, 2015 Report Share Posted December 1, 2015 Mark, My Clarke 135 TE & Hobby Weld gas cylinders works really well. I use about two 6 cu metres cylinders of gas per 5Kg reel of wire. Don't contemplate the tiny cylinders they don't last more than a few minutes and really cost arm & leg. Alan I second this. I have the same 135TE welder, was recommended it from a number of people for automotive use and to be honest if you are using your welder from a 13Amp supply there is no benefit to getting a more powerful welder than this. Steve Steve Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Stevecross Posted December 1, 2015 Report Share Posted December 1, 2015 As for most replies go for a gas Mig. By far the best setup in my experience is with 0.8 wire & tip. Also go for a large capacity bottle of carbon/argon gas. Pay the refundable deposit for a big bottle (it is far cheaper) and invest in the appropriate gas valve but keep the hobby bottle set up to swap to when you suddenly find you have run out. Used a Clarke unit for years and restored many cars with it. Works fine for most stuff up to about 1.5mm. I moved on to a 195 amp semi professional unit but well over a normal budget but the smaller units struggle with penetration on thicker metal so just be aware of the capabilities of smaller units if doing chassis repairs. For example. a weld may look good on the outside but if the metal is too thick for proper penetration it will fail. Steve Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ian Vincent Posted December 2, 2015 Report Share Posted December 2, 2015 I have used my Clarke 135 amp model for material up to 3mm thick with good results. Turn it up to maximum and make sure you give the weld time to penetrate. And yes I did do a test piece first and cut it in half to check. Rgds Ian Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Stevecross Posted December 2, 2015 Report Share Posted December 2, 2015 You must be talking about 3mm total depth rather than 2x3mm sections. A 145 unit in my opinion and from experience would really not perform on 2 x 3mm even on a butt weld. Steve Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Lebro Posted December 2, 2015 Report Share Posted December 2, 2015 Anything over about 2.5mm I would use arc welding (I have both 180A Arc, & a 120A MIG) Bob. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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