Bill Bourne Posted September 18, 2015 Report Share Posted September 18, 2015 Morning Does anyone have any experience of the rocker shaft assembly (bushed) being offered by Moss ? http://www.moss-europe.co.uk/9cc811.html http://www.moss-europe.co.uk/media/pdf/839-128_instructions.pdf This is for the TR5 that I'm re-building. Standard engine set up. The old rocker shaft assembly is looking tired so it will need to be renewed, either with just standard shaft and rockers, or perhaps this alternative. The only difference being that the rockers are bushed. Not a great deal of cost difference. Thank you best Bill Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TriumphV8 Posted September 18, 2015 Report Share Posted September 18, 2015 (edited) I have them in use because I do not like the original steel on steel bearing which in my opinion was more a works solution to save money. The rockers work like they should, nice solution if roller rockers are no decision to be made. I would not expect any influence on oil pressure. Edited September 18, 2015 by TriumphV8 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bill Bourne Posted September 20, 2015 Author Report Share Posted September 20, 2015 Hi Andreas Thank you for your reply. I'm not sure about the roller rockers. I've heard rumours that they are perhaps unreliable and have no real benefits. I really don't know. So I'm opting for a standard set up and these seem to be a good option to gain the benefit of greater accuracy in setting them up. Anyway your comment is re-assuring. Thank you Best Bill Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest ntc Posted September 20, 2015 Report Share Posted September 20, 2015 Bill Ask yourself why they recommend the separate oil feed ? again ask the tech guys. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TriumphV8 Posted September 21, 2015 Report Share Posted September 21, 2015 They want to sell one? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
snowric Posted September 21, 2015 Report Share Posted September 21, 2015 Neil, is the separate oil feed recommendation so we up our oil consumption and have to buy more oil and spark plugs ? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bill Bourne Posted September 21, 2015 Author Report Share Posted September 21, 2015 My understanding is, that the separate oil feed is not needed. I fitted one once years ago and for the life of me I can't remember why I took it off, but I'm sure is was not healthy to keep it. If I go for these rockers, I won't fit the separate oil feed. I assume that will make no difference to the rockers ? The only difference I can see from the standard rockers is that these are bushed. Unless I'm missing something Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TriumphV8 Posted September 21, 2015 Report Share Posted September 21, 2015 I would agree, had this feed in use when engine was new for splashing more oil on the cam. When the engine had run in I removed it. I took a look at all the oil with oil feed in place & cover removed. Was driving the pump with an accu driller. Plenty of oil is splashing all around and without valve caps I would expect too much oil coming into the inlet and exhaust. Can not share Neils recommendation for that oil feed for these reasons: 1.) The TR4 engine with similar situation (bushed rockers ex works) does not need that 2.) The TR6 with bushings should have better situation to avoid fretting and improve sliding in the bearing bronze/steel than the original with steel/steel. 3.) The additional oil feed should only be used with additional valve caps or rubber rings at the valves to avoid oil coal build up in the manifolds, valves and chamber. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jerrytr5 Posted September 21, 2015 Report Share Posted September 21, 2015 Do you really need a full set of rockers? In my experience just replacing the shaft and maybe a couple of rockers is sufficient, although I think the solid spacer kit is worth the investment. Generally the shaft wears big time and the rockers barely at all and a new shaft takes up the play. Jerry Quote Link to post Share on other sites
peejay4A Posted September 21, 2015 Report Share Posted September 21, 2015 (edited) Indeed. Once upon a time it was possible to buy slightly oversized rocker shafts. Then you could ream the rockers to suit, if needed. Edited September 21, 2015 by peejay4A Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest ntc Posted September 21, 2015 Report Share Posted September 21, 2015 I would agree, had this feed in use when engine was new for splashing more oil on the cam. When the engine had run in I removed it. I took a look at all the oil with oil feed in place & cover removed. Was driving the pump with an accu driller. Plenty of oil is splashing all around and without valve caps I would expect too much oil coming into the inlet and exhaust. Can not share Neils recommendation for that oil feed for these reasons: 1.) The TR4 engine with similar situation (bushed rockers ex works) does not need that 2.) The TR6 with bushings should have better situation to avoid fretting and improve sliding in the bearing bronze/steel than the original with steel/steel. 3.) The additional oil feed should only be used with additional valve caps or rubber rings at the valves to avoid oil coal build up in the manifolds, valves and chamber. I did not recommend it Moss did,I would never fit one again. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TriumphV8 Posted September 22, 2015 Report Share Posted September 22, 2015 Bill Ask yourself why they recommend the separate oil feed ? again ask the tech guys. Neil I am still thinking about the sense of your post if not a recommendation for the oil feed. Are you against these rockers generally? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
henktr Posted September 22, 2015 Report Share Posted September 22, 2015 Bought a chromed rocker shaft with rebushed rockers for my .tr250 about 4 years ago directly from Rocker Arm Specialist in the US (.Was very pleased with the results. http://www.rockerarms.com/pages/about.html. It has a new owner now with the old employees. If i understand it correctly from the .pdf file in your post, they do the work for moss now. Regards henk Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest ntc Posted September 22, 2015 Report Share Posted September 22, 2015 Andreas Do a search on here for the most useless upgrades then you may understand. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bill Bourne Posted September 23, 2015 Author Report Share Posted September 23, 2015 (edited) I'm now confused. Just to be clear. I won't be fitting the oil feed, but are these bushed rockers a good idea? - what's the downside of using them ? The standard ones are about £12 each + a rocker shaft £45 + bits etc comes to around £190-£200. These are priced at around £173 so cost is not an issue. I've done a search on here, but nothing. best Bill Edited September 23, 2015 by Bill Bourne Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TriumphV8 Posted September 23, 2015 Report Share Posted September 23, 2015 I am confused, too Bill. Why can't Neil give a clear output what is wrong with the rockers we have in use? It would be quite easy to tell us that instead "look here" or "ask there"...... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Nick Hedges Posted September 23, 2015 Report Share Posted September 23, 2015 I am confused, too Bill. Why can't Neil give a clear output what is wrong with the rockers we have in use? It would be quite easy to tell us that instead "look here" or "ask there"...... I agree, to help others it would be helpful to justify comments with facts, either good or bad and backed up with the reasons why. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
peejay4A Posted September 23, 2015 Report Share Posted September 23, 2015 If I might paraphrase and from my experience. Don't fit the oil feed kit it's a waste of money. Bushed rockers are a useful modification, much better than steel on steel as has been remarked. They might need reaming to fit. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest ntc Posted September 23, 2015 Report Share Posted September 23, 2015 (edited) If I might paraphrase and from my experience. Don't fit the oil feed kit it's a waste of money. Bushed rockers are a useful modification, much better than steel on steel as has been remarked. They might need reaming to fit. +1 Pete, Moss don't tell you that Edited September 23, 2015 by ntc Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TriumphV8 Posted September 24, 2015 Report Share Posted September 24, 2015 Bushed rockers are a useful modification, much better than steel on steel as has been remarked. They might need reaming to fit. The oversize was advertised. Due to the problem that the stock rockershaft has larger tolerances it can happen that on some shafts the bushed rockers might slide properly and on other shafts they would be just at the limit of the allowed play in the bearing. So they pair shaft and rockers for better tolerances. For that reason my set came with new little oversized rockershaft where the rockers are manufactured to fit perfect on that shaft. The oversize shaft still allows to be pushed through the rocker posts although a bit more force is required to do so. If a precise reamer is availiable it is always a good idea to fit bushings and ream them. I never thought the "press and play" is a good idea on small end bushes or bushes for the camshaft, if fitted. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BlueTR3A-5EKT Posted September 24, 2015 Report Share Posted September 24, 2015 (edited) Not sure about oversized rocker shafts as that would mean having to ream the pedestals too. My experience was that bushed rockers on the 'A' series engine did not eat the rocker shaft as fast as the all steel pressed tin items did. The last 'A' series used an unbushed sintered rocker arm. The rocker oil feed kit when used in 'as sold' form on the 6 cyl engine is said to reduce/starve the oil flow to the main/crank bearings at high engine rpms as it takes oil directly from the main oil gallery that feeds to the crank. Many have used the rocker feed kit with an added restrictor in the feed where it enters the side of the cyl head. The restrictor reduces the amount of oil taken by the rocker feed kit. An increase in oil flow to the rockers over the original delivered by the bypass flat machined on the rear cam journal should be considered an improvement but not at the cost of oil flow elsewhere in the engine. If you increase the amount of oil in the rocker area do you need to fit valve stem oil seals? (this type of thing? http://www.minispares.com/product/Classic/Engine/Cylinder_heads/Valves_accessories/LJQ101160.aspx?100410&ReturnUrl=/product/Classic/Engine/Cylinder_heads/Rocker_Assemblies/C-AHT443.aspx|Back%20to) Does too much oil in the rocker area that is not draining back down to the sump cause insufficient sump oil level for pump pickup in hard cornering? Is the original oil pump of suficient size/capacity? Does Oil cooler pipework (size/length/routing) also affect oil pressure/flow? Discuss Peter W Edited September 24, 2015 by BlueTR3A-5EKT Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bill Bourne Posted September 24, 2015 Author Report Share Posted September 24, 2015 The oversize was advertised. Due to the problem that the stock rockershaft has larger tolerances it can happen that on some shafts the bushed rockers might slide properly and on other shafts they would be just at the limit of the allowed play in the bearing. So they pair shaft and rockers for better tolerances. For that reason my set came with new little oversized rockershaft where the rockers are manufactured to fit perfect on that shaft. The oversize shaft still allows to be pushed through the rocker posts although a bit more force is required to do so. If a precise reamer is availiable it is always a good idea to fit bushings and ream them. I never thought the "press and play" is a good idea on small end bushes or bushes for the camshaft, if fitted. +1 Pete, Moss don't tell you that OK - If I understand correctly. If I buy the kit as offered with it's own rocker shaft then the reaming question does not apply ? Except for the question of whether the shaft will fit through the existing pedestals ? and that would be the final and only risk ? If so, then it's buy and try. If it doesn't fit. Send them back or ream the pedestals to fit. ? Best Bill Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BlueTR3A-5EKT Posted September 24, 2015 Report Share Posted September 24, 2015 (edited) OK - If I understand correctly. If I buy the kit as offered with it's own rocker shaft then the reaming question does not apply ? Except for the question of whether the shaft will fit through the existing pedestals ? and that would be the final and only risk ? If so, then it's buy and try. If it doesn't fit. Send them back or ream the pedestals to fit. ? Best Bill How I read Mike Grant's text is that you get 12 new bushed rocker arms that are honed specifically to match as a set one particular shaft. - That is then sold as a matched shaft and rocker set under the Moss USA part No of 839-128 or Moss Europe Pt No 214559XK I would guess that if the Moss shaft did not fit the standard pedestals and you had to mess with your existing ones, Moss would end up with them fitted anally. - line reaming is not an everyday skill the TR owner has. The fitting instructions should cover any extra work required. The Americans are usually good about giving you the complete package as their home market is allegedly apt to sue for 'loss of enjoyment' if their car is not up and running quickly. Write to them and ask before buying. Peter W Edited September 24, 2015 by BlueTR3A-5EKT Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TriumphV8 Posted September 24, 2015 Report Share Posted September 24, 2015 Bill mine fitted with no problems as I posted. The difficulty in that area is more that the pedestals are often clamped too much and will not let the shaft pass anyway. That can easily be corrected with a grinding paper drilled around a suitable driller and carefully pushed through the pedestal bore to clean it a bit. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest ntc Posted September 24, 2015 Report Share Posted September 24, 2015 Bill mine fitted with no problems as I posted. The difficulty in that area is more that the pedestals are often clamped too much and will not let the shaft pass anyway. That can easily be corrected with a grinding paper drilled around a suitable driller and carefully pushed through the pedestal bore to clean it a bit. How can you over clamp the pedestal? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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