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Steel Wheels - are your 4J steels all the same ?


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I'm painting a set of TR2/3 steel wheels at the moment, size 4J x 15 as per the original standard.

 

During the prep work I have noticed the centre hub section of two of my the wheels are positioned at approximately 7 or 8mm inset on the rim compared to the others.

 

The wheels all carry the same stampings and part number except for one minor detail, on the front face in between the wheel nuts some have an additional letter '2' stamped on them. The additional stamping is consistent with the centre of the wheel being inset or not.

 

I now realise I have 2 pairs: one pair the hub is inset by the 8mm, the other pair is not. This has the effect of offsetting the rim (tyre) by this amount and I don't feel too happy to mix these on the same axle.

 

Does anyone know if this is a TR2 -TR3 build difference?..... and what are the thoughts on mixing on the axle ? ( I can obviously only carry one wheel type as a spare).

 

Thanks

Bob

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Hi Bob,

 

4J steel wheels were found to be weak and replaced at TS1869. The new stronger wheels had H stamped near the stud holes. I wonder if the wheels with 2 stamped on are perhaps from another car ?.

 

I can't see any reason not to use the wheels you have in pairs front or back, given good usable 4J steel wheels are so scarce. A marking to that effect on the inside of the wheel such a RR and LR would help keep them paired up. Wire wheel tracks were 1" wider than steel wheel tracks and Lockheed diff cars had 1/2" wider tracks than those with Girling diffs, so putting the slightly wider pair at one end shouldn't hurt.

 

Viv

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Hi Bob,

 

4J steel wheels were found to be weak and replaced at TS1869. The new stronger wheels had H stamped near the stud holes. I wonder if the wheels with 2 stamped on are perhaps from another car ?.

 

I can't see any reason not to use the wheels you have in pairs front or back, given good usable 4J steel wheels are so scarce. A marking to that effect on the inside of the wheel such a RR and LR would help keep them paired up. Wire wheel tracks were 1" wider than steel wheel tracks and Lockheed diff cars had 1/2" wider tracks than those with Girling diffs, so putting the slightly wider pair at one end shouldn't hurt.

 

Viv

Thanks Viv, I was hoping you might reply, problem is all my wheels have H stamped near the stud holes, as well as the Standard logo (letter S in a diamond) but yet they differ. Car is very late TR2 but some wheels are cast offs from a friends very early 3.

 

Its only the letter 2 in same size character as the H that appears on some of them. The wheels with a 2 stamped on them have the centre section stepped in which effectively increases the track width. So even if I fitted them as front and rear pairs, I still have to decide which spare to carry and in the event of a flat, I will have to mix types on the same axle. I don't currently have enough good wheels to do otherwise.

 

If you are interested I could photograph the stampings and email to you.

 

Thanks

Bob

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Hi Bob,

 

isn't the 'S in a diamond' the Sankey logo rather than Standard ?

 

GKN Sankey produced very similar 15" x 4" rims with 4.5" pcd for Standard Triumph, MG and Volvo, each with differing offset . . . . . although otherwise interchangeable

 

I should have a few spare decent 4" rims - and I can check them on the wheel balancer. Tom will be over here next month, could bring them to Maldon . . . . .

 

Cheers

 

Alec

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Bob, I still suspect the different stepped in wheels originated from another car. If the factory changed the step-in, you'd expect a new part number, but it stayed the same until they went to 4.5" rims.

 

Hopefully Alec comes to the rescue, but if not. I'd match the spare to the front wheels. It wouldn't matter if the rear wheels were mismatched for a short time in the event of a puncture.

 

Must get back the the Goodwood live stream as the Spitfire is up again.

 

Rgds,

 

Viv

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Hi Bob,

 

Possibly some clarification - when Bill Piggot was Registrar for the TR2 - TR3 - TR3A's he wrote an article in TRaction detailing the various wheels that were fitted in period.

 

The following is part of that article :

 

Up to TS 13045 (i.e., Lockheed-braked cars). Fitted with 4J steel wheel part number 301672.
Cars up to TS 1635 had Mayflower wheel nuts (Part number 100870), and cars from T51636 onwards had Vanguard-type wheel nuts (part number 109586).
This means that early cars had the smaller Mayflower wheelbrace, part number 101761, but later cars had the Vanguard-type, part number 59428.
Mayflower nuts were 11/16" AF, Vanguard ones were 718" AF.
TR3 TS 13045 onwards, all TR3As, all
TR4s, all TR4A's, these had 4J wheel, part number 302262, with Vanguard type 7/8" AF wheel nuts as above.
This wheel 302262 had the centre moved outwards in relation to the rim position by about 3/8 inch. This is hard to explain, but easy to see if you place a 301676 and a 302262 wheel side by side.
Nigel Wiggins reckons that this may have been done to give slightly increased clearance to the disc brakes and calipers, although the early wheel
301672 will still fit on a disc brake equipped car. He also notes that the Girling front hubs of disc braked cars protrude outwards about 3/8" more than the Lockheed hubs, so maybe the wheel centre repositioning was to compensate for this, and to ensure that measured overall, front track remained the same.
If you send me a PM with an e-mail address, I can forward a PDF of the full article.
Regards, Richard
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Hi Richard,

 

Looking it up, I've mis-keyed one number - it should be 302262. That's the Disc Road Wheel listed on page 40 Stanpart spares catalogue 4th edition, shown as being introduced at TR3 TS13046. The 4.5" rim continued on TR4/4A models.

 

There must be conflicting evidence as the TR5 I had came with 5" steel wheels, said by the PO to be original. Strangely, when I went to order wire wheels, the listing showed 4.5" rims, so I had a set of 5" wires custom made.

 

Rgds,

 

Viv

Edited by vivdownunder
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Hi,

 

This is a lot information about steel disc wheels, all together its gives this information.

 

TS1 to TS 1869 : 4J wheels, centre hub section equal to rim.

TS1869 to TS13046 : 4J wheels, stronger type, marked with H near stud holes, centre hub section equal to rim

TS13046 to Triumph TR4 : 4J wheels, the centre hub section positioned at approximately 7 or 8mm inset on the rim. Because wheel base Girling axle is about 1/2" shorter

 

So the change of the centre hub 7 to 8 mm is done to get same wheel base with the change from Lockheed to Girling.

 

Question, what is the difference between the first wheels and the stronger type with marking "H" near the studs. Can you see it on other ways than the Marking"H"

 

I also have a set steel wheels that are 4,5J with the inner section 7 or 8 mm inset on the rim also riveted. Are they from a TR5 part number 308288?

When came the change from riveted to welded inner section to rim? Is this the 5J wheel?

 

Regards Robin

Edited by Kutscher
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Hi Viv,

 

My understanding is that the 4.1/2J steel wheel was introduced with the TR5.

 

The set of these steel wheels that I acquired came from a one owner TR5, who had changed to wire wheels about one year after purchasing the car.

 

Robin,

 

As far as I am aware, the spot welding of the two parts was introduced on the 308288 4.1/2J wheel - for the TR5.

 

Your 4.1/2J wheels with riveted sections sounds interesting - what are stamp markings in the well of the outer rim.

 

These markings are usually stamped at regular intervals around the circumference and always detail the width, type, size and rim type - i.e. 4.1/2 J x 15 H.

 

Regards, Richard

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TR5 and very early TR6 wheels are easily recognised by the 3 long studs to locate the Rostyle wheel trims.

Stuart.

Edited by stuart
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Thanks for all the contributions, thoughts and data supplied on this subject.

 

I have fitted my 4J wheels for the moment with offset centre rims to the front and non-offset centre rims to the rear. (Giving wider track to the front). The reason for this choice is the offset rims had less run-out when loaded to the wheel balancing machine, so thinking of the benefits the truer rims might have on the steering, I went down this route.

 

I also considered, at the time, that the wider track offset rims may have been designed that way for clearance on the hard brake caliper pipes which connect across from each side of the solid early brake calipers (as per the TR3 Girling calipers which I have fitted). If those hard pipes are poorly made with any excess length, they can rub on the inside of the rim.

 

But on then reading the Girling rear axle width explanation from Robin above, I am now inclined to believe I should have the rims on the other way around - e.g. swap front wheels with back to provide wider rear track. (Although its a TR2, I do have the narrower Girling axle fitted).

 

The other comments about MG or Volvo wheels probably don’t apply to me, although I fully accept & believe they do exist. My wider track wheels came from a TR3 of 45+ years continuous ownership with as friend whose car eventually went over to wires - so there’s some reason to believe they are original Triumph rims.

 

Just for the record, all my wheels have the H stamp on them. The offset rims (wider track) also have a no. ‘2’ stamped on them, this is on the same outer face as the H but between the opposite pair of wheel nuts.

 

It would be interesting to see if anyone else on 4J rims can see this extra no. 2 stamp ? which could confirm them as Triumph rims / or not… and could this no. 2 be the difference between TR2 H stamped rims and later TR3 H stamped centre offset rims for Girling axle fitting?

 

Thanks again for all the info provided.

 

Regards

Bob

Edited by OldBob
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  • 5 years later...
On 9/11/2015 at 8:08 PM, RAHTR4 said:

Hi Bob,

 

Possibly some clarification - when Bill Piggot was Registrar for the TR2 - TR3 - TR3A's he wrote an article in TRaction detailing the various wheels that were fitted in period.

 

The following is part of that article :

 

Up to TS 13045 (i.e., Lockheed-braked cars). Fitted with 4J steel wheel part number 301672.
 
Cars up to TS 1635 had Mayflower wheel nuts (Part number 100870), and cars from T51636 onwards had Vanguard-type wheel nuts (part number 109586).
 
This means that early cars had the smaller Mayflower wheelbrace, part number 101761, but later cars had the Vanguard-type, part number 59428.
 
Mayflower nuts were 11/16" AF, Vanguard ones were 718" AF.
 
TR3 TS 13045 onwards, all TR3As, all
TR4s, all TR4A's, these had 4J wheel, part number 302262, with Vanguard type 7/8" AF wheel nuts as above.
 
This wheel 302262 had the centre moved outwards in relation to the rim position by about 3/8 inch. This is hard to explain, but easy to see if you place a 301676 and a 302262 wheel side by side.
 
Nigel Wiggins reckons that this may have been done to give slightly increased clearance to the disc brakes and calipers, although the early wheel
301672 will still fit on a disc brake equipped car. He also notes that the Girling front hubs of disc braked cars protrude outwards about 3/8" more than the Lockheed hubs, so maybe the wheel centre repositioning was to compensate for this, and to ensure that measured overall, front track remained the same.
 
If you send me a PM with an e-mail address, I can forward a PDF of the full article.
 
Regards, Richard

Hi Richard,

can you send me a copy of that pdf? Thanks in advance 

regards Alexander 

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