Sluggish starter motor

[Kiwifrog]

...or even for the bush to fall out completely....

 

 

 

Roger

 

Saw that on a friends car when I removed the starter when the starter would not turn, it just made clunking noises, it was help from this forum that lead us to the cause of the problem

 

cheers

 

Alan

[ianc]

Phosphor bronze bushes (NOT the brushes) should be soaked in oil overnight, then the excess wiped away next morning prior to re-assembly of the motor.

This applies to dynamos, also.

Ian Cornish

[RogerH]

Hi Ian,

Soaking a solid Phosy Bronze bush will do little to impregnate it with oil. They are self lubricating.

But it will give peace of mind.

 

However a Sintered Bronze bush DOES need soaking.

 

Roger

[bullstreetboy]

Guys

 

The motor is out and on the bench. One brush was standing higher than the other 2. I removed all and removed slight burrs and generally cleaned.Replaced and the motor works on the bench.

 

I like the workshop manual:- "remove 2 bolts and then remove the motor from the engine bay" I had to drop the exhaust from the manifold and even then it was a tight squeeze.

[mleadbeater]

IMHU the original starter is barely up to the job, suggest you dump it, take the plunge and fit a modern high-torque unit.

 

Mike

[BlueTR3A-5EKT]

Give the thing a fighting chance and fit a new set of brushes while it is on the bench.

 

Look Under £15.00 buys you the kit

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/M418G-STARTER-BUSHES-BRUSH-SET-/110656230918

 

Peter W

[bullstreetboy]

Guys

 

The motor is back in! Even more aching bones. I did manage to start the car but really there is no difference. It still stalls trying to turn the engine most of the time.

 

However, I did discover that it turns over as designed with the ignition off. Talking to the Village garage owner, he suggested it may be down to the coil taking too much current. I don't have a ballast resistor.

 

It's not an earthing problem, it's not a cable problem, it's not a starter motor problem. I ran a big jump lead from the +ve direct to the starter and got the same result. I also ran a big jump lead from the -ve direct to the engine.

 

So, if it is not a coil problem then it has to be ignition timing. BUT when I can get it stared there is no evidence of pinking, and I did set it up as per manual. Then is set it up "by ear" and backed if off 4 degrees on the thumb wheel. I think I have now backed it off about 12 degrees on wheel.

 

It's really trying my patience now!

Edited September 29, 2015 by bullstreetboy

[Lebro]

That does sound like over advanced ignition to me.

The additional current drawn by the coil would be insignificant compared to the current drawn by the motor (3A as opposes to 300A ish)

[bullstreetboy]

Lebro

 

The coil explanation did not seem true to me. My ammeter only shows about 3a with the ignition on and not cranking the starter.

 

re ignition - running twin 40's so the 4% advance may not be enough. No timing hole on the pulley so inserted my Triumph Motorcycle TDC tool and painted a white Line at TDC. Then set it up at firing on TDC then thumb wheel back 1/2 turn - so 4% as I understand it. That was a long time ago and has been set up by "ear" since then, and reversed back 4%.

 

If I put a strobe on it what should I be looking for? What is the circumference of the pulley so that I can mark degrees?

Edited September 30, 2015 by bullstreetboy

[RogerH]

Hi BSB,

does this TRiumph Motorcycle TDC tool actually work on a TRiumph Motorcar - it still sounds like ignition.

 

Roger

[bullstreetboy]

The Triumph Motorcycle TDC tool worked well in the TR although once again when I set the ignition as per manual it was way retarded. Remember I don't seem to have a timing hole in the pulley.

 

Anyway all that work for nothing. Same as before.

 

It's not ignition, it's not a cable/earthing problem. It's not a seized water pump or dynamo. With one rear wheel jacked and in 4th gear, no plugs, the engine turns fine(as it does on the motor with no plugs).

 

So I think it is a failing winding in the motor. I guess I could get it tested but ..... Enough is enough. I've exhausted my patience. I'm on to Moss for a high torque.

 

Thanks for all your patience, and advice. Lets hope I'm not back here next week with "same as before"

[Les]

Bullstreetboy. ( do you have a name?)

 

Some years ago I bought my TR2. I used it as my everyday transport, summer and winter. It ran well for a while and then I got starting problems almost identical to yours. Occasionally it would start but 99% of the time it gave all the symptoms of a duff battery. The starter would kick the engine up to compression and then stall. I checked all that I could, connections, earths etc and tried jump leads from a known A1 battery. No joy! Yet the car would start up instantly from a roll down a slope, or a push, so no timing or ignition faults.

 

Finally discovered the cause when I stripped the starter motor. Drive from the armature to the bendix goes through a rubber cush drive. Basically an inner and outer steel tube with dog teeth and a moulded rubber bush in between. On my starter the inner sleeve had become detached from the rubber bush, so when the starter tried to turn the engine the shaft and inner sleeve turned but the bendix didn't. The bush was still fairly tight on the sleeve so the motor did not spin out of control.

 

The drive is a bit fiddly to fit but is readily available. (501217). Cured mine and is still working fine.

 

Les

[Lebro]

If you go for a geared starter motor make sure you get the right one.

Early sidescreens had a shrink on ring gear, & need a 9 tooth starter, later ones (& 4's) have a bolt on ring gear, & need a 10 tooth starter.

 

Bob.

[bullstreetboy]

Thanks Bob

 

I've got TS76611 so have ordered a bolt on ring type (GUE4412X) but I will check the teeth against the old one before fitting. It will be here Monday.

[bullstreetboy]

Les

 

My name is Barry. Thanks for the info. I'll strip the old one and take a look. It was a recon and has not done a lot of work. If I can repair it perhaps someone would like a spare.

[bullstreetboy]

Guys

 

The (suspected) NFG motor is off again(those 3 exhaust bolts are a "b******" to get at whilst laying on your back with the car on axle stands) - the motor does indeed have 10 teeth, so it looks like I may have ordered the correct replacement. Does the manual except that you have the transmission tunnel removed whilst removing the top motor bolt?

 

Am I right in my assumption that what I have is the replacement for the "Bullet" older type starter. It certainty does not match the one my "J.L.S.Maclay" owners workshop manual(supplied with the car). But it does mirror the one with the worn out Bendix removed originally.

 

Tomorrow is the day assuming UPS does their thing. I'll let you know with positive results I hope.

 

"Barry"

 

 

 

[Lebro]

The "bullet" type is the older one used on TR2's & early 3's - 9 teeth, & shrink on ring gear

The body of the bullet motor is about 3" longer than the later 10 tooth type.

Bullet type throws the bendix rearwards to engauge the ring gear from the front, later unit does the reverse

Only the older type has the rubber drive (which can fail), later type uses a big spring to absorb the shock

"Hi torque" replacement motors are pre-engauge type, and both 9, & 10 tooth types engauge on the front face of the ring gear

 

Bob.

[RogerH]

Hi Barry,

to save taking the tunnel off to get at the top starter motor bolt simply put a hole in the tunnel (apprx 3" dia).

This can be blanked off with a rubber bung - (floor panel bung)

 

Roger

[Lebro]

Back in the 70's I modified the top bolt by welding a ¼" rod about 2" long onto the head. with this bolt inserted from the rear changing the starter only required undoing the nut, the bolt could not turn due to the rod.

Unfortunately I forgot all this on the 2013 re-build, so when I come to fit my newly purchased "hi-torque" motor I may have some trouble !

 

Bob.

[Les]

Hi Barry

 

As Bob points out, only the earlier "bomb" starters have the rubber drive bendix, so won't be fitted in yours.

 

Check through the starter hole that you definitely have a flywheel with the bolted on ring gear or you will knacker your new starter!

 

Always possible that somebody has fitted a later starter to an early flywheel, which would run too tight when in mesh!

 

Les

[Lebro]

Always possible that somebody has fitted a later starter to an early flywheel, which would run too tight when in mesh!

 

Les

Without modification a late type starter will simply not engage on a shrink on ring gear, BUT they can be made to work by elongating one of the mounting holes in the motor to allow it to swing outwards a tad. I know this because I did it back in the 70's ! and it worked just fine.

 

(Not recommended though)

 

Bob.

[janduppen]

Hi,

for what it's worth, after all these nice comments: I cleaned the starter motor innards, made everything move smoothly, checked the brushes, cleaned the commutator, but to no avail. Finally (after years of mediocre starting) I bought myself a nice present: a Hi Torque strarter motor. What a joy!! I highly recomend it. All your problems will be over. It costs some money, of course, but well worth it.

 

Easiest to install is to remove the rear carburettor. Then remove old starter and install new one from the top. You still have to lie under the car to connect things, or even better, remove the transmission tunnel for easy access. I am 69 too and seem to do it all the time.

 

Cheers,

Jan

[bullstreetboy]

_Guys

 

_{Success with the Moss high torque! What a nice piece of kit.}

 

_{Started instantly, although Webers spitting because ignition too retarded. Set ignition by "ear" again and it's working as designed.}

 

_{So I'll strip the old refurbished motor and try and find out what is wrong. I suspect I will find a bad coil.}

 

_{Once again- thanks for all the advice and suggestions.}

[Lebro]

Barry.

Your transport seems remarkably similar to mine !

 

1998 Jeep Cherokee, 1967 Bonneville T120, 1956 TR3, oh & 1935 Hillman Aerominx

 

Bob.

[bullstreetboy]

Bob

 

I did notice the similarity. What a coincidence. The T120 came to me in 3 boxes after a hard life racing in the early 70's. It's now back to factory spec. I've just sold 2 "surplus" T20's. I can now get everything except the Jeep in the garage.

 

Re drilling a hole in the tunnel to allow access to the top bolt - good idea! I did manage to get the nut to start by clasping in one of those long flexible "F it I've dropped it" tools and running it down the fire wall - a fiddle but I've managed it twice now. Having a large Weber 40 in the way did not help matters - some nice bruises on my arms today!

Edited October 7, 2015 by bullstreetboy