Peter Cobbold Posted October 10, 2015 Report Share Posted October 10, 2015 (edited) Peter, Stuart,, i am not sure what sensor you are refering to, there was nothing resembling a sensor in the 123 Tune box, just the dizzy, and the information regarding mapping for '' boost retard'' What am i missing /not understanding here? tony Tony, The sensor chip is inside the disy. A small bore hose connects it to the intake manifold. Peter Edited October 10, 2015 by Peter Cobbold Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Peter Cobbold Posted October 10, 2015 Report Share Posted October 10, 2015 Deano, this looks like a better way to control knock, may get a discount if we order 2? http://www.jandssafeguard.com/NewUniversal/UniversalVersion.html See if anyone has used it on a classic engine before. Its essentially a tuned microphone that has to exclude all noises apart from knock.That's fairly easy with rubber belt cam drives, hydraulic tappets etc on modorns. Classic engines make a lot more noises that can confuse a knock sensor. 'Tin ears' might be more effective for setting up the spark timing http://www.enginebasics.com/EFI%20Tuning/Det%20Cans.html Peter Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Peter Cobbold Posted October 10, 2015 Report Share Posted October 10, 2015 As Peter says knock is a piston killer, stay on the water injection idea as you will loose power with boost retard and check out the Phormula KS-4 knock sensor kit as a failsafe Dean, Unfortunately for those of us without access to very high octane fuel any anti-knock measure apart from high RON degrade power. Octane boosters are fraught with sales misinformation. Retarding the spark reduces peak cylinder pressure and delays it a bit after optimum piston position. Water injection slows combustion and does much the same.Fuel enrichment also slows burn. Which method involves the least power loss is not obvious. Intercooling would work, but not with a 'wet' blower due to the explosion risk in an intake backfire. The knock sensor kit may or may not work, depends upon how many extraneous noises are aggregated into the 'knock' signal. Peter Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Tony Posted October 10, 2015 Report Share Posted October 10, 2015 Tony, The sensor chip is inside the disy. A small bore hose connects it to the intake manifold. Peter Peter, ah. i assumed that was for the vacume advance as per normal distributors, as i said, i have yet to read all the instructions, too busy with conrods and pistons at the moment, tony Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Tr4Deano Posted October 10, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 10, 2015 (edited) Have been reading about the meth/water injection and it looks this can increase power output while reducing the risk of knock, not sure about how volatile this mixture would be though? ( can not be any worse than high octane fuel) Have just read your link to the def/cans Peter, ok for garage setup but I only have a bit of street-cred left and driving round in a big pair of earmuffs is not the look I was going for???? Edited October 10, 2015 by Tr4Deano Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Peter Cobbold Posted October 10, 2015 Report Share Posted October 10, 2015 (edited) Peter, ah. i assumed that was for the vacume advance as per normal distributors, as i said, i have yet to read all the instructions, too busy with conrods and pistons at the moment, tony Tony, The same device does vac advance too. Peter Edited October 10, 2015 by Peter Cobbold Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Peter Cobbold Posted October 10, 2015 Report Share Posted October 10, 2015 (edited) Have been reading about the meth/water injection and it looks this can increase power output while reducing the risk of knock, not sure about how volatile this mixture would be though? ( can not be any worse than high octane fuel) Have just read your link to the def/cans Peter, ok for garage setup but I only have a bit of street-cred left and driving round in a big pair of earmuffs is not the look I was going for Dean, Once the timing and mixture have been set up the tin ears can be shelved. The idiea is to set a good margin of safety so detonation wont occur in normal weathers and on the RON of the fuel available. Water alone injection after the blower cools and slows combustion and the vapour can displace air so the amount of mixture ingested falls too. That reduces risk of knock. Its very difficult to determine how much water is needed as knock is so sensitive to conditions in the chamber. Methanol in water, if it evaporates between the carb and blower will increase charge density and hence power, because it increases cylinder pressure and hence knock risk.. But evaporative cooling after the blower reduces it. the balance is difficult to estimate. Ideally you need to know what fraction evaporates where...before or after the blower. Note that 50% methanol in water will burn, so take care to avoid sparks in the vapour space in the tank, its a much bigger fire risk than petrol vapour space. I think the flammability limit at 20C is about 20% methanol. Peter. I did a couple of blog posts on water injection: https://supertrarged.wordpress.com/2014/11/10/tr6se-28-water-injection/ https://supertrarged.wordpress.com/2014/11/22/tr6se-29-distribution-of-injected-water/ The droplet sxe of the spray and how it evolves with distance for the nozzle is critical, but often unknown. Its all a bit of a minefield. Edited October 10, 2015 by Peter Cobbold Quote Link to post Share on other sites
chris.giles Posted October 12, 2015 Report Share Posted October 12, 2015 I bought and fitted the Moss supercharger kit a couple of years ago to my RHD TR3, its a well thought through piece of kit. My engine is of unknown specification as I have had no need to touch the engine,I believe its not unleaded so use an additive. The engine does use the Moss stainless manifold and exhaust system. I had it set up on a rolling road (I've used before on my supercharged M1000) and it produces @ 5000 rpm 118 bhp at the rear wheels and is a peach to drive. I use the car for work and drive fairly big mileage for a classic, never without a smile on my face behind the wheel. I would not suggest any pulley change from standard without setting the car up, the SU that comes with the Moss kit really does require a rolling road to get the best from it, along with the CSI distributor I used. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Peter Cobbold Posted October 12, 2015 Report Share Posted October 12, 2015 I bought and fitted the Moss supercharger kit a couple of years ago to my RHD TR3, its a well thought through piece of kit. My engine is of unknown specification as I have had no need to touch the engine,I believe its not unleaded so use an additive. The engine does use the Moss stainless manifold and exhaust system. I had it set up on a rolling road (I've used before on my supercharged M1000) and it produces @ 5000 rpm 118 bhp at the rear wheels and is a peach to drive. I use the car for work and drive fairly big mileage for a classic, never without a smile on my face behind the wheel. I would not suggest any pulley change from standard without setting the car up, the SU that comes with the Moss kit really does require a rolling road to get the best from it, along with the CSI distributor I used. Hi Chris, Welcome to the the forum. And congratulations on becoming a convert to TR supercharging. There are several TR3 owners currently contemplating the Moss s/c kit and your comment on "... a peach to drive" will I'm sure be noted. I suspect you might be asked for a drive ! I agree, the low boost pulley is wisest if the compression ratio is not known. It is always possible to fit a higher boost pulley along with a decompression gasket... for more torque ! Peter Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Tony Posted January 18, 2016 Report Share Posted January 18, 2016 hi Peter and Deano, update. Well the engine is now fully built. ended up with a compression ratio of 8.3 to 1, the cam was a 'one -off' from Kent, giving 24 degrees of overlap and a 245 duration with .418 valve lift. the head was fitted with unleaded inserts and larger exhaust valves, exhaust port opened and flowed. chambers balanced at 58cc. Checked with the 123 dizzy manufacturers and they said the sensor measured pressure and vacuum and was 'quite robust' so should not be a problem. the dizzy vacuum take off is not on the manifold but in the by-pass line from the by-pass valve to the back of the s/charger. All i need now is the car back from the painters, promised for December and now expect it in February!! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Peter Cobbold Posted January 18, 2016 Report Share Posted January 18, 2016 Have been reading about the meth/water injection and it looks this can increase power output while reducing the risk of knock, not sure about how volatile this mixture would be though? ( can not be any worse than high octane fuel) Have just read your link to the def/cans Peter, ok for garage setup but I only have a bit of street-cred left and driving round in a big pair of earmuffs is not the look I was going for Deano, Lots of info on water injection here: https://read.amazon.co.uk/?asin=B00FGDKK5Q Ten octanes - no problem. And without a power loss too. He has summarised WWII aircarft research on WI. Highly recommended. Water will barely evaporate before the compression stroke. Almost none in the manifold, and not much on the intake valve or piston crown either as far as I can see. Am working on a new blog post on WI at present. Water-methanol - dont know, as I dont fancy another tank of flammable liquid in the boot. Peter Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Peter Cobbold Posted January 18, 2016 Report Share Posted January 18, 2016 hi Peter and Deano, update. Well the engine is now fully built. ended up with a compression ratio of 8.3 to 1, the cam was a 'one -off' from Kent, giving 24 degrees of overlap and a 245 duration with .418 valve lift. the head was fitted with unleaded inserts and larger exhaust valves, exhaust port opened and flowed. chambers balanced at 58cc. Checked with the 123 dizzy manufacturers and they said the sensor measured pressure and vacuum and was 'quite robust' so should not be a problem. the dizzy vacuum take off is not on the manifold but in the by-pass line from the by-pass valve to the back of the s/charger. All i need now is the car back from the painters, promised for December and now expect it in February!! Tony, Excellent. I'd be very interested in knowing what the SU needle profile turns out to be. 8.3:1 .....so you're going for the higher boost kit? or playing safe to start with? Peter Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Tony Posted January 19, 2016 Report Share Posted January 19, 2016 :Peter i will run it in on the standard pulley and see what it gives in the way of performance and then decide which way to go, do you know where to buy different size pulleys other than the ones from Moss? tony Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Peter Cobbold Posted January 19, 2016 Report Share Posted January 19, 2016 :Peter i will run it in on the standard pulley and see what it gives in the way of performance and then decide which way to go, do you know where to buy different size pulleys other than the ones from Moss? tony Tony, Best to play safe at first, I agree. Pulleys can be turned relatively simply in a lathe by a machine shop. I dont know how Moss achieve the faster blower speed - do they alter the crank pulley too? or only the blower pulley? And does the higher boost kit also include a shorter belt? The Moss upgrade kit may be better value than it seems at first sight. Peter Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Tony Posted January 19, 2016 Report Share Posted January 19, 2016 Peter, The crank pulley is 6.055 inches and the s/charger is 2.65, all measured where the belt sits, there appears to be quite a bit of belt adjustment. I have fitted all the hard ware to the engine including the s/c so that i could make a heat shield to go between the inlet and exhaust manifold although the exhaust manifold has been triple cam-coated. I have read somewhere on line that the Moss pulleys are 2.25 and then 2 inch for the highest boost and cost around £100 mark, which is why i was looking for an alternative cheaper source tony Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Peter Cobbold Posted January 19, 2016 Report Share Posted January 19, 2016 Peter, The crank pulley is 6.055 inches and the s/charger is 2.65, all measured where the belt sits, there appears to be quite a bit of belt adjustment. I have fitted all the hard ware to the engine including the s/c so that i could make a heat shield to go between the inlet and exhaust manifold although the exhaust manifold has been triple cam-coated. I have read somewhere on line that the Moss pulleys are 2.25 and then 2 inch for the highest boost and cost around £100 mark, which is why i was looking for an alternative cheaper source tony Tony, So all you'd need to do would be to remove the blower pulley, take it to an engineering machinist and have one turned up to a smaller diameter. The grooves are easily made with a tool ground to a standard spec, one groove at a time. Sounds like the adjuster will take up the extra belt play. Have you got a cold air intake sorted? The heat shield will preven radiant heat from cooking the blower, but hot air will still get up to the stock Moss intake. A bonnet scoop would be ideal.... Peter Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Tr4Deano Posted January 19, 2016 Author Report Share Posted January 19, 2016 Hi all, very jealous Tony but also glad you are ahead of me in the supercharging game, I hope to benefit from all your engine specs and your size choice of pulley, save me a bit of time. Have not started engine build yet, still collecting parts the latest being very shiny roller rockers. Removed rear axle at weekend, off to TR Enterprises tomorrow to have LSD fitted, more money Quote Link to post Share on other sites
roy53 Posted January 19, 2016 Report Share Posted January 19, 2016 Have just seen this topic.When Criss Conoley was at MASS race engines he developed a full race blown engine ,dyno tested etc. With crazy figures.i think the issues were the rest of the car couldn't take it. As a company they may not pass on any info but may be worth a chance. ROY Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Tony Posted January 20, 2016 Report Share Posted January 20, 2016 Hi all, very jealous Tony but also glad you are ahead of me in the supercharging game, I hope to benefit from all your engine specs and your size choice of pulley, save me a bit of time. Have not started engine build yet, still collecting parts the latest being very shiny roller rockers. Removed rear axle at weekend, off to TR Enterprises tomorrow to have LSD fitted, more money Deano , my axle already has a LSD fitted along with disc brakes and anti tramp bars, all fitted by a previous owner. don't know what the diff ratio is yet, may not be standard judging by the rest of the mods. Tony, So all you'd need to do would be to remove the blower pulley, take it to an engineering machinist and have one turned up to a smaller diameter. The grooves are easily made with a tool ground to a standard spec, one groove at a time. Sounds like the adjuster will take up the extra belt play. Have you got a cold air intake sorted? The heat shield will preven radiant heat from cooking the blower, but hot air will still get up to the stock Moss intake. A bonnet scoop would be ideal.... Peter Peter having the pulley machined down is a good idea, will have to consider that when the time comes. the induction cold air is planned to come up the left hand side of the engine with a filtered carbon fiber cold air box where the battery normally rests . there will be another air duct on the right hand side to direct air under the blower and heat shield. tony Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Peter Cobbold Posted January 20, 2016 Report Share Posted January 20, 2016 Deano , my axle already has a LSD fitted along with disc brakes and anti tramp bars, all fitted by a previous owner. don't know what the diff ratio is yet, may not be standard judging by the rest of the mods. Peter having the pulley machined down is a good idea, will have to consider that when the time comes. the induction cold air is planned to come up the left hand side of the engine with a filtered carbon fiber cold air box where the battery normally rests . there will be another air duct on the right hand side to direct air under the blower and heat shield. tony Tony, Neat ! -that should keep the induction nice and cool. I meant take the pulley as a pattern for machinist to get dimensions. Get second pulley made from scratch Keep the original in case of too much boost. Peter Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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