pfenlon Posted January 16, 2015 Report Share Posted January 16, 2015 When I bought my present TR4, CT392, I was fortunate enough to already have a reconditioned engine, with gas flowed, unleaded head, 4 branch exhaust etc. Rather than go to a lot of trouble to fit the old engine block to the reconditioned one, to make a numbers matching car, I just fitted the new engine. I have kept the old block though, in case I do sell the car, I thought numbers matching actually meant something to do with the cars provenance. I visited a well known Pro TR builder recently (NOT TR bits) and saw them restamping an engine block, having machined off the old number, to then have an original numbers matching engine. This isn't the first time I have seen this happen. Matching numbers doesn't have the same ring to it somehow. I suppose the bottom line for this sort of scam, is just greed, pure and simple. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BrianC Posted January 16, 2015 Report Share Posted January 16, 2015 Is that legal? I would hate to think any of the TR specialists I do business with would do something like this. It brings all of them under suspicion. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Alec Pringle Posted January 16, 2015 Report Share Posted January 16, 2015 I hate to think how many times I've seen that done over the years - by all and sundry, there's nothing new or unusual about it. Same goes for gearboxes, and even axles. Rather like the availability of new blank commission and VIN plates ready for stamping, never mind the making of new body tags. How else do you recreate a 'historic' TR complete with 'provenance'. No apologies for cynicism, I've been around too long for that ! Cheers Alec Quote Link to post Share on other sites
cp25616 Posted January 16, 2015 Report Share Posted January 16, 2015 Yes but however good you re-stamp an engine you never ever get it to look like it was originally stamped. This should be evident when anyone is purchasing a car. Check out a few to understand just what I mean. Alan Quote Link to post Share on other sites
cp25616 Posted January 16, 2015 Report Share Posted January 16, 2015 BTW Alec you are absolutely correct in your reply. This has happened for so long now and yes I have seen a few too. Alan Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Alec Pringle Posted January 16, 2015 Report Share Posted January 16, 2015 Hi Alan, it was common enough 45 years ago, but back then possibly more to do with disguising the origins of the engine, especially if the lump had been lifted from a hot car, as in nicked. Or a ringer. I've seen some re-stampings that were good enough to fool most folks, including yours truly - but then they were done with an original set of factory punches, which cost the specialist concerned a pretty penny at the time, which wasn't long after Wedge production ceased. I'm sure they've done plenty of work over 30 years . . . . . It's a bit like the antique trade - 95% of fakes are evident to the initiated and knowledgeable. Then there's the other 5% that will pass scrutiny by the great and good of the major auction houses, simply because they are that well done. I spent 15 years in Brighton, 1970s and 80s, not much you couldn't learn about fakery there !! Cheers Alec Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest ntc Posted January 16, 2015 Report Share Posted January 16, 2015 You need to remember that the engines are old and some have had the block decked . Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jerrytr5 Posted January 16, 2015 Report Share Posted January 16, 2015 Why would you consider it a scam? We spend many hours reconditioning components, does it matter what serial number it has? The serial number is there to identify which parts to order for replacement, nothing else. It's not a GP Bugatti. Jerry Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Paul Down Posted January 16, 2015 Report Share Posted January 16, 2015 What is a matching number gearbox or axle for that matter? The case may be original with its correct number but how many of its internals will have been changed perhaps several times for older cars over its lifetime. All a bit of an expensive nonsense! Similarly so called original Mille Miglia cars that fetch millions, how much of the original cars remain I suspect very little in the majority of cases, as they will no doubt have been enthusiastically campaigned most major components even if made to look otherwise will have been replaced or extensively restored. Originality, its a myth! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Alec Pringle Posted January 16, 2015 Report Share Posted January 16, 2015 Agreed Paul and Jerry, at least up to a point . . . . . it doesn't, or shouldn't, matter that much in the greater scheme of things. However, when a motor coper offers a 'historic' car and majors on factors such as 'matching numbers' to confirm its originality and/or provenance, thereby enhancing its perceived value to those buyers with more brass than common, that's when it becomes a scam . . . . . or so it seems to my way of thinking. 'Obtaining pecuniary advantage by deception' might be an appropriate description ? Cheers Alec Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Peter Cobbold Posted January 16, 2015 Report Share Posted January 16, 2015 I think there's an X-ray technique for reading original stampings even if the number has been ground to invisibility, and under the new one. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Don H. Posted January 16, 2015 Report Share Posted January 16, 2015 ...I visited a well known Pro TR builder recently (NOT TR bits) and saw them restamping an engine block, having machined off the old number, to then have an original numbers matching engine... I suppose the bottom line for this sort of scam, is just greed, pure and simple. Agreed. For a dealer/restorer to do this in particular, sounds like an intention to deceive. Any time a class of collectibles starts to get valuable, sharpies start playing games. Thus has it always been. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Dave Ashworth Posted January 16, 2015 Report Share Posted January 16, 2015 Not long ago, I answered an ad on Ebay for an original TR5 engine. The chap selling it had many tales to tell as he had been in the TR business a long time and I had heard of his name before, so clearly he'd been around. Trying to get the full SP off this chap about the engine advertised was extremely difficult and in fact, once I got to the truth of it, the engine didn't actually exist, but he could build you a perfect one and stamp any number on it that you wanted. Those in the know will probably know who I'm talking about. Needless to say, that is plain crookery and deception and I walked away. I wouldn't want to be in the position of selling a car with an engine in it that was not what it was purported to be, regardless of how good it might be. Dave. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
littlejim Posted January 17, 2015 Report Share Posted January 17, 2015 (edited) If you just want it to look the part and work nicely when you are driving it (moi), all that stuff sounds a bit anal retentive. Are there people around who want everything to be historically perfect. (IGGORANT of OZ.) (I'll be out of favour, alternator, electric water pump, electric fan.) Edited January 17, 2015 by littlejim Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jean Posted January 17, 2015 Report Share Posted January 17, 2015 (edited) If you are not attached to your car like I'm to my TR6 you probably don't care. When I purchased the 6 in 1973 it had matching numbers.. and it still has. In the past, the car certificate ( certificat d'immatriculation ) in most if not all European countries did show the commission number as well as the original engine number. When selling a car both numbers had to be produced on the bill of sale. At the time an engine change had to be notified to the authorities concerned. Here the bill of my first car when I was 20..... shown in profile picture Edited January 17, 2015 by jean Quote Link to post Share on other sites
brydon Posted January 17, 2015 Report Share Posted January 17, 2015 When I bought my present TR4, CT392, I was fortunate enough to already have a reconditioned engine, with gas flowed, unleaded head, 4 branch exhaust etc. Rather than go to a lot of trouble to fit the old engine block to the reconditioned one, to make a numbers matching car, I just fitted the new engine. I have kept the old block though, in case I do sell the car, I thought numbers matching actually meant something to do with the cars provenance. I visited a well known Pro TR builder recently (NOT TR bits) and saw them restamping an engine block, having machined off the old number, to then have an original numbers matching engine. This isn't the first time I have seen this happen. Matching numbers doesn't have the same ring to it somehow. I suppose the bottom line for this sort of scam, is just greed, pure and simple. Hi Pete I think you have omitted an important piece of information here, I understand The original (badly damaged) engine block was not 6 feet away from the replacement, this is not someone glibly re inventing an identity! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
pfenlon Posted January 17, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 17, 2015 (edited) Hi Pete I think you have omitted an important piece of information here, I understand The original (badly damaged) engine block was not 6 feet away from the replacement, this is not someone glibly re inventing an identity! I didn't imply that at all. just the fact of changing an engine number from one to another is wrong. Or am I making a mistake. Edited January 17, 2015 by pfenlon Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Alec Pringle Posted January 17, 2015 Report Share Posted January 17, 2015 (edited) If changing one engine number to another isn't reinventing the identity of an engine . . . . . then I'll be damned if I know what else it is. Fraud would be my suggestion. How on earth the fact of the damaged original sitting six feet away from its doppelganger might somehow reduce the offence baffles me . . . . if anything it compounds the offence, and certainly to my way of thinking confirms the deliberate intention to deceive. Cheers Alec Edited January 17, 2015 by Alec Pringle Quote Link to post Share on other sites
stillp Posted January 17, 2015 Report Share Posted January 17, 2015 What if the block was replaced with a brand new one? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Alec Pringle Posted January 17, 2015 Report Share Posted January 17, 2015 An unlikely event in the case of a TR, any TR, there are precious few unused blocks remaining - wet liner 4, slant 4, 6-pot or V8. Few car manufacturers have made a habit of selling blocks - more usually a factory reconditioned engine, duly serial numbered as such, or a short engine similarly numbered. The bare block may have had a part number in the catalogue, but it was generally NSS - not sold separately. Standard Triumph were no exception to the general rule, as far as I'm aware. There's a strong argument to suggest that the block is what the engine number really relates to, the rotating and reciprocating parts being, to a greater of lesser extent, consumables. Sorry chaps, but I cannot understand the apologists for what is quite clearly an intention to deceive. Let's face it, you're more likely to pay a premium for a 'matching numbers' car than a bitsa . . . . . which is what it all boils down to. Meanwhile 95% of our cars, and probably more than that, are bitsas . . . . . Cheers Alec Quote Link to post Share on other sites
McMuttley Posted January 17, 2015 Report Share Posted January 17, 2015 In historic racing there are an increasing number of single seater chassis being built from new and parading under a previous chassis number; no attempt to repair the original chassis or at least admit that one so badly damaged should just be written off. In racing its deceit and cheating just to get an edge in a series where most folk do it for fun and where in reality its the pilot not the chassis that makes a difference; but when a car is to be sold at a financial advantage to the seller, I can see it as no more than plain and simple fraud. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
stillp Posted January 17, 2015 Report Share Posted January 17, 2015 Didn't I read somewhere that there are about 20% more Bugatti T35Bs about than ever left the factory? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BrianC Posted January 17, 2015 Report Share Posted January 17, 2015 Didn't I read somewhere that there are about 20% more Bugatti T35Bs about than ever left the factory? I think that applies to TR5s as well. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Dave Ashworth Posted January 17, 2015 Report Share Posted January 17, 2015 Those who know me will know that I'm not that bothered about originality, etc., but that's fine for those who are. All my TRs are mongrels, bitsa's USA to UK converted's and I actually sold the engine from my matching numbers TR4 as I had a better TR4A engine and overdrive box to put in it... I have been thinking of buying it back again though to return the car to matching number's status. It somehow feels more complete or 'right' that way, if that makes sense to anyone. The important thing to me is to be driving a TR that gives me pleasure, no matter what colour, as long as it's not red. It is in fact red, but there you go, and I love it, even though it's broken at the moment, just for a change. Dave. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ragtag Posted January 18, 2015 Report Share Posted January 18, 2015 You need to remember that the engines are old and some have had the block decked . In which case, the 'honest' approach is to have no number and have the receipt for the machining work in the history file. But in the case quoted by PF, decking doesn't come into it, does it? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.