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Guest Gealach

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Guest Gealach

If you were starting again and your intention was to take a standard TR4 and go historic rallying in it,

what would you do to it?   (and what are you allowed to ....)

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Speaking with the voice of experience .... sell it and buy one someone else has spent a fortune on getting it reliable and quick.

 

If you MUST keep your own car then RELIABILITY is the most important thing - anything that CAN break WILL break on a rally, especially if you push on a bit - and remember the old adage - "to finish first first you must finish" :D

 

Of course it depends if you are planning to do Historic Road Rallying (like most of us on here) or Stage Rallying (like Steve Hall) but there was an almost completely standard TR4a on the Targa last year that did VERY well, mostly by just being steady and getting the navigation and regularity accurate. Didn't even have a sump guard.

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Guest Gealach
Speaking with the voice of experience .... sell it and buy one someone else has spent a fortune on getting it reliable and quick.

anybody got a quick reliable TR4 they're selling then.....   :D

 

 

it will be Historic Road Rallying, nothing too wild - I have a strong self preservation streak and an aversion to bent metal.

 

It is someting that has been on and off the cards for years, but finances and other things have fallen into place lately. There is no standard TR4, so I don't have to sell one to buy a rally one, but I am looking for the right car.

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Having sat beside Andy on a few rallies now (and been the emergency mechanic too!) I can recommend:

1 - Ensure brakes/ steering/ wheels bearings etc are at least as good as standard can get: Uprated EBC-Greenstuff pads are worthwhile, solid rack mounts on later TR4 chassis improve steering feel and response. Decent front wheel bearings prevent "pedal-drop" when/ after hard cornering etc.

2 - A well tuned standard engine should be fine for historic rallying (unless you spend lots or time wrong-slotting then trying to make up time...fast) just be sure that after a good thrashing, the cooling system can cope. A pacet/ kenlowe fan is a VERY worthwhile mod.

3 - Stiffening the front suspension and adding an anti-roll bar really tightens the front up. The rear is fine standard if not worn. Twin valve/ adjustable rear dampers are awesome, but you'll need to chat (nicely) to TR4-Tony and get on the waiting list!!!

4 - timing/ distance clocks are required. The Brantz seems to work well (well I like it anyway!). Haldas can be expensive and awkward to set up.

 

beyond these basic mods it seems to be personal choice. I would advise that you stick to SUs (HS6s on later manifold) as they provide better low end pick-up. Webers can bog-down easily and only seem to perform really well at higher revs.

 

I'm certain other will add to this, but it should e plenty to be getting on with!!!!

 

Cheers

Adey

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OK, so you don't already have a car ... that's a much better place to start :D ... at least you don't have a lot of emotional baggage invested in your current pride and joy

 

I can only tell you what I did ... everyone will have a different way of doing things, but at this stage I've probebly made most of the mistakes it's possible to make and re-done most jobs several times before finally getting it right (well right-ish)

 

Start with a STRONG, complete but not "concours" TR4 - forget what any of the mechanical bits are like so long as they're there 'cos you'll be rebuilding/replacing them all.

 

Bodywork

Discard bumpers but not too far - there's a rumour that they will be required for pre-'68 road rally cars as they are for post-'68 already.

Front wing vents aren't just for show, they really do make a big difference to cooling.

A TR5 front valance has a hole for cooling your oil cooler.

Boot lid needs a couple of spring-type clips to hold it shut - I don't use bonnet clips, but it's a thought - you can discard the original cable pull and lock it down with one each side.

Roll-over protection - I use a couple of roll hoops, others might recommend a full cage but this does limit space inside the car.

Under-body protection - a full width (chassis rail to chassis rail) sump guard is essential - the one I bought from TR Enterprises was inadequate for the job and very pricey - contact me and I can get one fabricated for you in 5mm aluminium alloy for about £120 - occasionally goes a bit out of shape but knocks back easily.

Some might add gearbox protection and exhaust skids - I haven't needed these since relocating the exhaust system in a much higher position.

Move all brake lines and fuel lines inside the car and protect with rubber hoses and/or uses steel braided hoses throughout.

 

Engine/carbs/exhaust

You can go out to 89mm for rallying but NOT 91mm as this was only used on race cars within period.

Rebuild the engine with everything lightened and balanced, lightened flywheel, fast road cam (TH5?), gas-flowed head, HS6 carbs on later manifold, velocity stacks/ITG filters.

Electric fuel pump mounted in boot, new lines inside car to Filter King under bonnet.

Blank off old fuel pump hole on side of block.

Phoenix SS 4-into-1 exhaust manifold plus sports (single silencer) system - just scrapes through noise tests at scrutineering.

This should be good for 100bhp at the wheels but still very tractable - perfectly adequate - El Tel (Terry Pickering) has no more than this in his TR3 and he's won just about everything!

 

Transmission

Convert to 4a type diaphragm clutch and use heaviest duty one you can find. What you would find awful on the road will be perfect on a rally car.

Rebuild an o/d box with all the upgrades from Revington to sort out some inherent weaknesses.

Upgrade/rebuild the o/d unit, don't have o/d on 2nd (Tony would disagree)

Rear axle - tubes should be welded in (someone more technical than me can explain this better) for rigidity/longevity.

Diff - change to at least 4.1:1 - I have just fitted a 4.55:1 crown wheel and pinion and this feels about the right balance between acceleration and top speed - don't forget historic rallying takes place at a maximum average speed of 30 mph, so top speed is never going to be an issue.

Plate type limited slip diff - Jon Wood has just rebuilt mine with a TranX lsd - seems very good so far. Ade says it makes for interesting wet weather driving :D

 

Brakes

Unfortunately you can't use 4-pot calipers or drilled/slotted discs, so EBC green stuff pads, new standard discs and rebuilt calipers are the way to go.

At the back you'll need Alfin type drums - Tony can oblige with some trick German ones I think.

Dual-circuit is an essential safety measure, so do this whilst you're putting the new lines in - split them front and rear and use the Revington set-up so you can set the front-rear bias - you're not allowed to be able to alter this from inside the car, otherwise it's all legal.

Hydraulic handbrakes are not allowed (except in Ireland  :D ) but you might want to move it to the tunnel to make it easier to reach when you're strapped in with harnesses.

 

Cooling

Uprated (aluminium cored) radiator with no hole for the starting handle.

Replace all the hoses, get a proper shrouded thermostat.

Pacet or Kenlowe fan, manual override switch in car.

Oil cooler, mounted just below/in front of radiator.

 

Wheels/Tyres

Everyone uses the 15x5.5J Minilite replicas - they're reasonably priced, light and strong

Tyres - I have 3 different types now depending upon expected conditions, all 175/70 or 185/70 x 15 - you can't use a tyre below 70 profile on a historic rally car, or go more than one inch wider on the wheel (standard was 4.5J)

 

Chassis/Suspension

If you've got to take the body off then there are plenty of chassis strengthening mods available as discussed elsewhere by Tony - I don't have any of these but will do them if the body does come off sometime.

Front - Gaz shocks, all the new bits from Revington to set up the camber/castor etc. to suit radial tyres - makes a big difference to turn-in etc.

Front Anti-roll bar (3/4 inch from memory? - not sure? maybe TR6 item)

Rear - uprated shocks (twin valve from Tony if you can get them), standard but NEW springs, plus replace/strengthen/locate better all the eye-bolts, etc. - again mostly available from Revington.

 

Instruments

We use the Brantz Rally timer and Retrotrip - work well enough to be within a second on lots of regularity sections now - more down to the skill of the navigator really, but he's got to have the right tools.

 

... and of course I've still only touched the tip of the iceberg  :D ... you'll need seats, harnesses, fire extinguisher, cut-off switch, air horns, left foot rest, potti, etc. etc. !!!  :D

 

... if I'd known all this BEFORE I started I probably wouldn't have started

 

Hope this helps though!

 

cheers, Andy Lane

 

email andy@vtsurvey.com

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Guest Gealach

:o    yikes,  that's some list !

 

 

 

seriously though,  Andy and Ade, great info and very helpful. I can see why not being emotionally attached to a concours TR will be help - as you basically seem to be rebuilding it from the inside out.

 

I am sure I'll be back and forth on the forum asking more questions and tapping your extensive knowledge. Especially once I have a suitable car ......

 

Given the length of the suggested improvements, is there a concensus of what is best done first?  After all, there can't be many who have done that lot in one go.

 

And again, I am seriously looking for a suitable TR4 if anyone out there is selling

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:o    yikes,  that's some list !

 

Given the length of the suggested improvements, is there a concensus of what is best done first?  After all, there can't be many who have done that lot in one go.

Well you did ask!!  :D

 

What you need to do first will entirely depend on the car you buy and what state it's in - it might not seem like it, but the most cost efficient route is probably to get a basically sound but ratty car and build it up from scratch. If you can afford it I'd get a specialist to build it for you. Oddly enough you won't save much doing it yourself unless you're very experienced/highly skilled.

 

I generally use Stephen Clegg (AMK Engineering) for everything now - he built a complete MGB rally car for one of our "rivals" and all he ever needs to do is give it a wash after every event. I'm still spending £1500 per rally as the next weak link in the chain breaks .... see above list. I'd have thought you could give Stephen a TR4, £20,000 and six months and he'd produce an absolute stonker for you. And you would be secure in the knowledge that everything was essentially brand new and to the highest possible competition standards within the regulations.

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I would concentrate on making the car reliable first, faster comes later.

 

Electrices are a real problem area on the TRs, especially when wires/ components get very warm or very wet. Remenber too that the parts tend to be put under higher loads for long periods. If you're running pacet/ kenlowe, halogens, spots and wipers etc etc, the dynamo can stress-out a bit! (alternator, thin belt conversion and balanced bottom pulley is a good way to begin). If you're building from scratch then a bespoke loom with solder terminals and more than 2 fuses is the way to go.

 

A heat sheild for the alternator or exhuast manifold bandage is essential. Heat sheilds for the carbs is also a great idea while you're at it.

 

A decent fuel pump: you can still use the mech one if it's in top condition. My fast road TR4 has no problem (running SU-HS6s). Webers need more fuel so an electric pump and pressure reg is required.

 

Greenstuff pads are a cheap and very effective way of upping brake performance.

 

The mods that Andy has listed have been used when the old component broke/ gave up/ became unsafe. It's difficult to pre-empt what's going to break next.However, be prepared for a few retirements along the way!

It's all great fun though

 

Adey

PS: you'll find that the oddest things give up on rallies too...The wire to the starter motor broke during LEJOG (the wire was too short and was stretched every time the engine moved), which required me to hold the broken wire on the terminal whilst Andy turned the key. Green/ blue sparks everywhere!!!

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PS: you'll find that the oddest things give up on rallies too...The wire to the starter motor broke during LEJOG (the wire was too short and was stretched every time the engine moved), which required me to hold the broken wire on the terminal whilst Andy turned the key. Green/ blue sparks everywhere!!!

Ade forgot to mention that the fuel line sprung a leak just as we were about to go through the very first Main Control on LeJog, had to fix it before the first test (thanks Ade!) putting us 31 minutes down before we had even turned a wheel :(  ... this was despite me asking my mechanic at the time to change the fuel lines, and supplying him with braided hose for the job, because "it looked OK"   ???

 

The worst time Ade had to hold the starter motor cable on was when I stuffed it backwards into a bank after a wrong-slot, clogged the exhaust and stalled - as he was leaning over the car there were several very quick 911's bearing down on us who had also missed the same slot ... eeeek!!

 

As Ade has pointed out I did forget to mention the alternator conversion, exhaust bandage and heat shields .. and I'm sure there are more!

 

cheers

 

Andy

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.... mmmm, it's all gone very quiet. Do you think we put Gealach off the idea of preparing a rally car? :(

 

... couple of things i did forget ... lighting - a good (?Cibie) halogen headlight conversion with uprated wiring, relays and 100/135 H4 bulbs ... then there's the spot lamp bar, with 2 decent spots - Hellas (with 100w H2 bulbs) seem to fit well, no room for big Cibie's if you want to get the bonnet open (although chrome Cibie Tangos do fit and give reasonable light for their small size) ... and a big reversing light of course.

 

Probably a good idea to completely rewire the front of the car with uprated cable, extra fuses, relays etc. all in the space where the voltage regulator used to be before you did the alternator conversion.

 

Really hope this hasn't put you off - I just had the most fantastic night on the Garstang and Preston Memorial Historic Rally, amazing very fast roads and came 2nd :D ... and we kept some of the fast modern machinery on the main rally in sight, or even behind us, for long spells.

 

cheers

 

Andy

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Guest Gealach

hi Guys,  not been put off - altho' I admit I may have been rather stunned at just how much is actually involved........

 

perhaps rather niavely thought Historic Rallying was all country lanes and stopping for tea and scones.

 

I feel a long term project in hand rather than a quick fling.

 

From your advice, I hae a semblance of an idea as to how I will progress

Safety

Reliability ( mechanical & electrical)

wheels/tyres

body/suspension

 

in some sort of order like that  ( plus of course fixing what breaks)

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perhaps rather niavely thought Historic Rallying was all country lanes and stopping for tea and scones.

There are some events that are like this, and you certainly don't need the level of preparation outlined above to enjoy them. I think the Three Castles event around Wales and most of the European touring events run by Simon Rossiter are a bit easier on the cars, so peolple take standard XK120s, E-Types and DB5's along without too many problems. You'll find a standard TR4 can be very competitive in such company.

 

With my level of preparation this weekend we were able to mix it with well prepared modern cars like 205 GTI's and Imprezas on the Memorial Rally and had lots of favourable comments about our "level of commitment"  :D ... don't know where we would have finished overall cos' I've yet to see the final results, but at the halfway point we were 13th overall out of 60 (including 12 historics).

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Hi Gealach,

Some of the historic rallies Eg Cheshire and Ilkley run "tours" alongside the main event. The level of preparation required is much less and the experience re: navigation and tests is a bit less pressured. A near standard TR will do just fine (ask "Brydon" - his TR3 is out on lots of events.)

 

Safety-wise: EBC pads; check ALL steering relevant components (inc bearings, hubs and stub axles, trunnions etc) and fit some decent seatbelts/ harnesses. The TRGB hoops allow 4-point harnesses without the need for a full cage. Although, the evening we parked up on a HUGE boulder (via a fence) I remember thinking that it may have been a good idea!!! (the car was ok btw, and still manage to cruise home to Manchester from South Wales at 95-100mph. The RAC man who winched us out couldn't believe the car was still moveable, let alone driveable - bloody noisy though due to squashed exhaust middle pipe.)

 

when do you reckon your first event will be???

Cheers

Adey

PS: where are you based?

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Guest mrodbert

Before you lose heart completely, here’s my 10 cents, and hopefully a slightly alternative view to those presented above. Because the truth is that whilst you need to spend a bit to be competitive, you can still have lots of fun on a much smaller cash (and time) budget. Your unlikely to be competitive in your first few events/ years/ lifetime, so concentrate on learning the ropes, having fun, and finding out whether you enjoy rallying or not, without your investment depreciating like a stone falling because you paid twice what its worth to get it “rally prepared”.

 

Firstly, work out what you want to do, rather than the car you want to do it in. My suggestion is leave out stage rallying – too expensive, cars get burnt and you end up losing to the 911s anyway. Which leaves road rallying. But do you want to do long distance events or one-day jaunts. My suggestion would be to start with a few HRCR one-day events, possibly taking part in the “tour” elements, to see how you find it. Your best source of info is the HRCR website (www.hrcr.co.uk). Go to the road rally section and under “resources” there are a number of tutorial articles that are really helpful. Also, and this might be contentious, remember that most of this kind of thing is “rallying with old cars” not “old car rallying”. This means that whilst some events are about cherished and polished motors (the Malts, 3 Castles, etc), for most it’s about being able to do motor sport on a (compared to F1) limited budget.

 

Then what to do it in? Andy got it spot on: Buy something that someone’s already done the heavy lifting on. I repeat – you will NEVER recoup what you spent on a rally car when it’s resold. There’s about 5 “spot on” rally cars for sale on ebay each year at about the £30k mark and they never sell, only raising hilarity on this forum. You can get a really nice rally car for £3k that in a year will still be worth about £3k, and then you can move onto your dream TR4 if you still want it. For £3k you will not get a rally prepared TR4 (I know its heresy, but, useless rally car. Never won anything in period), nor will you get a mini cooper. But you might get an A40 Farina (Pat Moss won loads in an A40), or a big 50s saloon – remember Stirling won his Gold Alpine (3 consecutive penalty free Alpine’s) in a Sunbeam Talbot making him Britain’s most successful rally driver ever, or a Saab from Eric “on the roof” Caarlson fame, or a Volvo Amazon, etc., etc. And its much more fun rallying a car than preparing it (my opinion).

 

Just looking at the HRCR for sale site, once you’ve gone past Phillip Young’s Magenta – has provenance, too expensive – and the Porsche road car, what do we have? A 1967 MGBGT for £3k with no work needed (although the piccy seems to be of something else); a mustang that’s too expensive; a nice looking Amazon (don’t pay more than 3 grand for it); and a Sprite for 5 with a 2 grand number plate – split them and take the Sprite for 3. All really great starter rally cars that will see you through your first season. Go to ebay and type in “Historic Rally Car”. Today there’s an MGB that is up to 2.5 – reserve not met. One of the pictures shows a sticker price of £14k, which is too much (ebay schoolboy error no. 1), but anything less than £10k would be good.

 

Then, using the money you saved on the car, buy your best and oldest mate (best man territory only) a huge amount of beer and talk him into being your navigator. You’ll do much worse initially than if you get someone who knows what they’re doing, but you’ll have more fun in the long run.

 

Ok – you’re still unconvinced. You still want to buy a TR4 and prepare it. You’ll probably end up spending £7k on the car and about another £5k to do it up if you do it on the cheap and you can forget doing anything until 2006. Phillip Young put together a great book on preparing a historic rally car if you can get hold of it. My list of minimum, essential things to do would be: Half roll-cage (hoop and back struts) – Revingtons do a nice one that fits under the Surrey top. You must go for a Surrey top! Rally seats and 4 point harnesses. Fire extinguisher. Sump guard. You then need to read the HRCR technical site and tidy up your engine bay, grommeting any holes, putting yellow tape on the earth, strapping down the battery, etc. etc. – the HRCR website has it all. Then buy and fit a Brantz International 2 tripmeter and some really cheap stopwatches, and you’re away. At all stages check that what your doing is allowed (eg a Brantz Int 2 is legal, but a 2 ‘S’ is not, except in Ireland). Remember, Velcro may not look “period”, but the extra strong stuff will make sure your kit doesn’t come away from the dash, except when you need it to.

 

Then just get your local friendly garage to check all the safety basics – are the brakes ok, suspension not falling off, chassis not rotting away, steering not about to fail, especially are the brakes ok. We didn’t do this and came back from Barcelona to be told that a brake bodge meant that every time we had hit the bump stops (about 50 times a day) the copper brake line had been squished. It was a miracle that the brakes hadn’t failed and trouser weren’t brown all round. Tell them what your doing it for and they should do a bit more than a usual MOT.

 

You can do loads of daytime rallies with this setup. However, if you want to do long distance or night sections it gets more complex. Spots are a necessity along with good brakes. You’ll also need interior lights, a reversing light and a potti (look on Don Barrow’s site to find out what one of those is). To do all this you need a second fuse box, relays and a lot of electrical wire. Not as hard as it seems, but fiddly.

 

Once you start with this setup and put the car under repeated pressure you will find stuff starts failing. Our approach was to buy spares – dynamo, starter, water pump, radiator, fuel pump, suspension, brake pads, etc. – and replace as they fail. However, you can replace them all in one go as they definitely will fail, which is where the Andy/ Ade approach above starts. You will also want to replace all the suspension bushes at some time, but again you don’t “have” to do this straight off the bat.

 

Last word of advice – if you want to get your technique up to scratch and don’t mind driving around at night getting lost, try a “12 car night rally”. There’s bound to be a motor club in your area running some, and you can do them in any car, with no preparation, so get out in your euro box and have a go. They normally run over the autumn/ winter.

 

So, welcome to our sport. Please don't be put off. At least 50% of any field fall into the novices/ newcommers/ first-timers category. If you need any more advice feel free to mail me, and your more than welcome to have a peek round our TR4. We also write a regular column in TRAction that will give you some idea of what we all get up to, and if you’re in the South-East happy to meet up for a beer

Cheers,

Mark

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Hi Guys,

 

I have been following this thread with great interest.

My real name is John Dowson and you may have read some of my rebuilders diary entries in TRAction on rebuilding a TR4 for road rallying.

You have all been very kind and not 'flamed' any of my scriblings or disagreed in public with what I have written.

 

Anyway, I must say that the advice given in the replies is very sound and as far as my experience goes in building a car, totally correct.

 

Almost all of the road rallying I have done has been in mainland Europe, only 12 cars in the UK so don't forget that you can be in for some very long motorway transport sections if that is what you are interested in so don't go for to low gearing.

 

Finally as stated DO NOT underestimate cost. I did and have now stopped adding up the bills. Also do get a usable car and

do a rolling restoration/preparation otherwise you will get

very frustrated. I have another car so that was not a problem.

 

This year is a year out as the TR is consuming to much money and time. Also it really has to be finished this year ready for next season.

 

Look forward to meeting you on events.

 

John

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Hi John - have to agree with everything you say - I have just had to shut my eyes to the cost and hope that I get a good price for my house when it finally has to go :D

 

Mark's comments are very sound - if I was starting again I'd probably get an Amazon - hugely capable, very strong, faster than they look and very cheap to buy and prepare in comparison with a TR4. Stan Appleton recently sold his very well sorted A40 Farina for under £1,000, which would have been a great way to start historic rallying and could even be used on stage events - it had a 1275 tuned Midget engine so it was no slouch.

 

If you must have a TR4 the one HERE might be a good starting point.

 

Another thought would be to go endurance rallying, which is where Ade and I started - we have an entry for this year's Revival Rally - we'll be in a Citroen AX GTi (bought for £460) - it will probably be under £2,000 once kitted out with uprated brakes, suspension, cage, seats, etc. and reasonably competitive. Just like historic rallying but in under 1400cc cars and 40mph averages on tests :D

 

Good thread this 'innit!

 

cheers, Andy

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Guest mrodbert

Andy - extremely cool thread.

 

John - would never dream of flaming anybody. After all many ways to skin a cat. Just would encourage you to get it done so you can stop messing about and have some real fun with us :D  Also, your point about motorways is a good one. A TR4 is fine for motorway travel - its the humans that struggle. The cockpit is noisy, hot and cramped, especially when you don't have overdrive. We don't. Jon and I have an intercom that we only use on motorways getting to and from events. What I wish I'd known is that buying a 4 with overdrive is no more expensive than one without, but retro-fitting overdrive costs you about 25% of the value of the car.

 

I met the guys with the Farina on the Ilkley, they were down our end of the grid so, Andy, you may have not seen them. They were grinning like Cheshire Cats, 'coz everyone, and I mean everyone, knew how much they paid for it and could see that it was a well sorted beasty. Definitely, the way to go. I also quite fancied a 912 Porker at one stage, but then reality hit.

 

As an aside, Jon and I met a couple of guys on the 2002 Winter Challenge in a Farina, one of whom had a strange Pat Moss fixation. When we asked him why he had a modified inlet manifold he went all misty eyed and whispered "Because Pat had one. Handsome woman. Handsome woman". Very strange.

 

Mark :)

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Mark, Andy,

 

Thank you for your kind very kind words.

 

However I think you may have opened a can of worms!

 

I agree that if I was starting again I would not go for a TR.

A saloon car is what is needed. An Amazon has got to be high on the list. Monica (nav) and I have just returned from a marshalling stint on the Classic Trophy and there was a superb Triumph 2500 Mk1 on that. It really did make me think.

 

The comment on the Revival Rally is another interesting point.

I am not sure how long true road rallying can continue. Almost every mainland Europe event has PR problems. I do think that the Revival Rally formula is spot on and is probably the future for low cost rallying. I had first refusal on a Corsa that came in 13th last year but the owner decided not to sell as he enjoyed the event so much and wanted another go. Suppose it also depends on your view on Phillip Young events.

 

Anyway enough of this chit chat - back to the workshop.

 

John

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I think you may have opened a can of worms!

 

I agree that if I was starting again I would not go for a TR.

A saloon car is what is needed. An Amazon has got to be high on the list.

This is definitely starting to sound like when you stop to ask someone the way to somewhere and they say "Well, I wouldn't start from here, that's for certain!"  :;):

 

There's just the right sort of Amazon on eBay HERE as it's the 122S model with twin carbs (and a VERY cool visor) - seems a bit pricey, but you'd probably get a grand for the number plate and if it's really complete and sound it's worth it 'cos you could give it a good service and take it out on a rally next week, or in 4 weeks to be precise, on the Tour of Anglesey :D  :D

 

... this is probably exactly what Gealach didn't want to hear!  "You don't want to do it like that!! Do it like this!!"  :laugh:

 

Still, it's a great thread and if I'd read this sort of stuff before I'd started I could be a lot wealthier now!!

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Ill just add my two pennies then ......

 

Unless you have a car already I'd say avoid the 'ratty car, spend loads and make it good' thing as ive been down this line (see the posting on anybody know my car EOL 573C ......)

 

I bought a sound but basically OK car and rallied it a bit and what i found was that all that Andy mentioned broke, poured fluid or generally looked like it was falling out - so dont kid yourself - a rolling restoration is NOT going to be any fun to rally. I hate breaking down so much that I try to avoid it at all costs ......

 

I went down the route of building a strong car for rallying, buying a rust free USA car, converting to RHD (easy peasy lemon squeeezy) and starting from scratch (I had the other car to run whilst I did this) - I went easy on the expensive mechanicals, which Ive gradually 'upgraded' over the last few year as I could, but I build a bombproof chassis, used a rot free body and put a cage in it to stiffen and make it handle ....... this means that 3 years on its still a good car, despite the treatment it gets. The car cost me £4K (which was cheap) and I spent another £10k on it at that time.

 

If I do it again (which I am in the middle of now) I would always start with buying a good chassis, body tub (with a V5), panels, engine, gearbox axle etc and then just buy the bits I need - at least 50% of the standard car is thrown away when building / restoring a car for rallying so I would elect not to waste the money or compromise the reliability by using bits you feel bound to use because you have them. I wouldnt buy a whole car again.

 

This is the most cost effective way to get a super car that will get you home every time - the TR4 is very very hard to break terminally - I have tried extremely hard ......... as im sure the following posts will explain in graphic and hurtful detail!

 

If you are not up to building a car (or at least some of it) you are in the territory of buying someone else's - a good one will be expensive and there are not many well prepared rally TR4's about. Best place to start is by talking to specialists like Steve hall at TR Enterprises ot Neil Revington at Revington TR, both of whom will give you good advice and may even know of a decent car.

 

£35k will not buy you BST82B ............

 

Regards

 

Tony

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Regarding high speed continental tourers - managed to get from Le Mans to Calais at a "not too shabby" average speed a few years back in a 911 but I guess that doesn't count as it's only got two doors......

.... St. Johann im Pongau (south of Saltzburg) to Ostende (730 miles) in 8 hours 20 minutes with three petrol stops of 20 minutes ... that's an average of exactly 100 mph ... one cold and clear winter Sunday in 1981!! The car? A Datsun 280ZX  :D ... never to be repeated I'm afraid  :( ... and doesn't qualify as a historic rally car either.

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Guest mrodbert

My fave is Budapest to Calais in a shade over 12 hours - in a Renault 21. My brand new company 205 GTI was parked at home, and someone needed their "shed" repatriated. Its amazing how not having a footrest gets tiring  :)

 

Just a note - 911s are not eligible on MSA historic events without special permission as they have 6 cylinders. The rule was brought in to limit 911s that were winning everything, but also affects GT6s and Vitesses too  ???  I don't think its difficult to get permission if you have a basically untweeked porker, but its a pain as I think you have to do it for each event. Hence my comment about a 912 - and its got a shorter wheelbase, so should handle a bit quicker. Anyone tried rallying a Spitfire rally replica - or a GT6? Now there's a car that actually won stuff. And what do people think about landcrabs - basically just an overgrown mini. We saw one on the Winter Challenge and the guy had an A3 map-table on the navigator side, tons of spares, and three changes of underwear, without using up any room.

 

Does bring home the point about thinking before you buy. If you compete on events that put you into classes based on cars, not experience, then a TR4 is a disaster. We found ourself up against big Healeys, top-prepped MGBs, twin cam MGAs, etc. etc. and top drivers like Robin Eyre-Maunsell - the only man to overtake us on a 3 minute test, starting 1 minute behind us  :P Much better to be in the under-contested 50s drum-brake saloon class. Or better still the Vintagents, where on the Winter Challenge the Bentleys agree over dinner who is going to win this year.

 

I'm not going to add to this thread until Gealach tells us what he's decided.

 

Mark

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