Antifreeze

[McMuttley]

Is this the right stuff ?

 

No reference to Oats or barley

 

 

 

[vivdownunder]

Silicate is an inorganic additive, so correct for sidescreen TR cooling systems.

 

Viv

[Mike Graham]

I've never seen this before. Why the silicate additive? Don't recall seeing anything locally advertising any such thing. Cheers, Mike

Edited December 8, 2014 by Mike Graham

[McMuttley]

It was the only blue one they had, a red one with Oats and a yellow one. There were 4 Comma ones, but their labelling was totally unhelpful and nothing sounding like 'blucol'

[RogerH]

Hi Austin,

I had exactly the same problem in October. I had to admit defeat and ask the spotty oik.

The said oik was neither spotty or oikish but very helpful.

 

What you have is the 'old' stuff for our cars.

You can also get in concentrate form - much cheaper. If you have a Halfords TRade card they practically give it away.

 

Roger

[ianc]

I took this from the FBHVC's website 3 years ago - might be worth having a look now to see whether the advice has changed (as I have converted to Waterless, I'll leave this task to those who are concerned).

Ian Cornish

 

From the FBHVC Website

ANTIFREEZE

27/01/10

Technology moves forward and new products are constantly being launched with claims to improved formulations and performance. With the recent bitterly cold weather in January antifreeze has been in the headlines, with some alarming stories which at first seem to be about the well-known tendency of antifreeze to find the tiniest hole and cause leakages – but in these cases it has led to catastrophic engine problems.

Traditional blue ethylene glycol is a toxic but highly effective antifreeze and contains silicates as an inhibitor to help prevent corrosion in an engine with mixed metals in its make-up. Bluecol and Blue Star are well known brand names and both of these are declared suitable for ‘classic cars’ on their company websites. Be aware that there are also low- or no-silicate ethylene glycol formulations (usually red) available which may not be suitable for all engines.

Propylene glycol is another well-known and less toxic antifreeze formula and usually contains silicates but Comma, the main manufacturer, has now discontinued it in favour of an ethylene glycol product containing ‘bittering agents’ to make it less palatable and minimise the risk of accidental poisoning.

Both of the above products use inorganic additive technology (IAT). Recently problems have been reported concerning the use of antifreeze mixtures using organic acid technology (OAT). OAT was introduced in the mid-1990s and the products are biodegradable, recyclable and do not contain either silicates or phosphates and are designed to be longer lasting. However these products do seem to cause problems in older engines; over and above the ability of antifreeze to find the smallest crevice and leak, OAT antifreezes have been accused of destroying seals and gaskets and causing a great deal of damage in ‘old’ engines. For this reason the manufacturers do not recommend their use in historic vehicles. These products are usually coloured red, pink or orange.

The final category is HOAT. These products use hybrid organic acid technology in an ethylene glycol base with some silicates in the formulation alongside the organic corrosion inhibitors. The product is usually coloured green and is not recommended for use in historic vehicles.

The Federation is still researching this problem but our advice at the moment is:

· only use blue coloured IAT antifreeze in historic vehicles;

· only use OAT products (‘advanced’ or ‘long life’antifreeze) if the vehicle used it when new and if specifically directed by the vehicle’s manufacturer;

· never mix different types of antifreeze without thoroughly flushing out the system;

· always replace the coolant within the time scale specified by the antifreeze manufacturer as the corrosion inhibitors break down over time.

 

01/04/10

In the article in the last newsletter, we said ‘Bluecol and Blue Star are well known brand names and both of these are declared suitable for classic cars‘. Perhaps we should clarify that we were referring to the traditional blue coloured Bluecol – but the company also sell a red coloured Organic Acid Technology (OAT) product suitable only for modern cars, not classics. Even more confusingly, there is also Bluecol U which is marketed as a universal top up and not an antifreeze product with which you would fill the whole tank. The manufacturer has assured us that this is suitable for historic vehicles.

It has also been brought to our attention that Halford’s sell a blue-coloured ‘Advanced’ antifreeze which has a label containing the phrase: ‘Older vehicles can further benefit…’ but on further examination it was discovered that this product does indeed contain OAT and therefore cannot be recommended for historic engines.

Our postbag has also been swelled by correspondence relating to the extremely poisonous nature of ethylene glycol, indeed the Cats’ Protection League has gone so far as to start an on-line petition to highlight the danger to small animals accidentally ingesting tiny quantities of the product. Propylene glycol is much safer and one of our new trade supporters, AAA Solutions Ltd, is about to launch a propylene glycol based antifreeze specifically aimed at historic vehicles.

It does remain a rather confused picture, but the important facts to remember for historic vehicle owners are: use only Inorganic Additive Technology (IAT) products according to the manufacturer’s instructions and take great care with any liquid containing ethylene glycol.

[McMuttley]

I noticed the concentrate but couldn't see on the label how far 2 litres went!

 

No spotty oiks in the Bromley Branch, it seems to be where all the attractive young sales ladies are sent to work - pleasant on the eye, but no good for mechanical advice - if only - that would be the dream girl.

 

I did however leave with other stuff I didn't need, so the ladies must be good at their job !

 

Cue Sue !

[McMuttley]

Cheers Ian, I found that article whilst in Halfords searching the t'internet for help, but on a tiny tiny phone screen I couldn't make sense of it.

 

 

PS, where is the tap to drain - lower rad ?

 

PPS - officially speaking, I assume the old stuff doesn't go down the drain - all 8 litres ?

[Don H.]

Ahh... good. It's been kinda boring on here lately, and what better to deal with winter gloom than a good ol' antifreeze thread.

 

Mixing any sort of molecule with water raises its boiling point and depresses its freezing point. Part of a set of properties called "colligative properties" of materials.

Antifreeze has a real function -- irrespective of the heat capacity advantages of water (and it makes an excellent heat transfer fluid, as we'll discuss below), ya got that pesky freezing point to deal with. The ratio of ethylene glycol to water (or any other solvated material -- there's nuthin' magic about glycol) determines the freezing point depression. Plenty of websites show freezing point as a function of blend ratio -- any jug of ethylene glycol should as well. Adding more ethylene glycol than needed for the temperatures expected reduces heat capacity of the fluid unnecessarily and wastes ethylene glycol.

Waterless coolants appear to be blends of propylene and ethylene glycol. The companies don't making simple documents like material safety data sheets easy to find. The MSDS for Evans Waterless Coolants NPG+ from some years ago showed the product was a blend of glycols containing about 70% ethylene glycol. Frankly, it didn't look a lot different from normal antifreeze concentrate and would of course have the toxicity of ethylene glycol. Newer products may be propylene glycol based to justify a claim of nontoxicity. Very expensive propylene glycol, too.

The heat capacity of water is about 4.2 J/cubic cm-K°. Propylene glycol is about 2.5, ethylene glycol about 2.4. Densities for all are less than 5% different, so on a volumetric basis water can carry over 60% greater heat. This is why we normally don't run 100% antifreeze in our systems, and probably one of the reasons our old TRs were originally instructed to run with "clean rain water" unless it was frosty. More antifreeze isn't better for heat removal. The Evans Waterless Coolant folks deal with this by stating there is a boundary layer of steam against the hot surface insulating the engine from heat transfer to the conventional coolant that isn't present with theirs. Dunno about that...

The 0 psig boiling point of the Evans Waterless Coolant is 356° F (180° C). Anti-boilover properties come along for the ride with any water-antifreeze mix due to the colligative properties, but one is not going to get a water blend with anything to have a boiling point as high as 180°C. My position is that if one is adding something to raise the boiling point of coolant above that of 4 to 7 lb/in² pressurized water in a TR there are bigger issues that need to be looked at. I'm not in favor of running my TR's engine hotter than it does already.

 

Standard ethylene glycol+water coolants, with silicate corrosion inhibitors, regularly changed, for me. I'll need more convincing that engine temperatures won't rise significantly to consider something different.

 

 

 

 

PS: My mom smiled for years at the memory of my dad's face after checking a boiling over radiator before I was born by holding a match in the dark to the filler neck. Whoosh! The alcohol vapors of the pre-ethylene glycol antifreeze flashed and burned off his eyebrows.

Edited December 8, 2014 by Don H.

[monty]

I took this from the FBHVC's website 3 years ago - might be worth having a look now to see whether the advice has changed (as I have converted to Waterless, I'll leave this task to those who are concerned).

Ian Cornish

 

From the FBHVC Website

ANTIFREEZE

27/01/10

Technology moves forward and new products are constantly being launched with claims to improved formulations and performance. With the recent bitterly cold weather in January antifreeze has been in the headlines, with some alarming stories which at first seem to be about the well-known tendency of antifreeze to find the tiniest hole and cause leakages – but in these cases it has led to catastrophic engine problems.

Traditional blue ethylene glycol is a toxic but highly effective antifreeze and contains silicates as an inhibitor to help prevent corrosion in an engine with mixed metals in its make-up. Bluecol and Blue Star are well known brand names and both of these are declared suitable for ‘classic cars’ on their company websites. Be aware that there are also low- or no-silicate ethylene glycol formulations (usually red) available which may not be suitable for all engines.

Propylene glycol is another well-known and less toxic antifreeze formula and usually contains silicates but Comma, the main manufacturer, has now discontinued it in favour of an ethylene glycol product containing ‘bittering agents’ to make it less palatable and minimise the risk of accidental poisoning.

Both of the above products use inorganic additive technology (IAT). Recently problems have been reported concerning the use of antifreeze mixtures using organic acid technology (OAT). OAT was introduced in the mid-1990s and the products are biodegradable, recyclable and do not contain either silicates or phosphates and are designed to be longer lasting. However these products do seem to cause problems in older engines; over and above the ability of antifreeze to find the smallest crevice and leak, OAT antifreezes have been accused of destroying seals and gaskets and causing a great deal of damage in ‘old’ engines. For this reason the manufacturers do not recommend their use in historic vehicles. These products are usually coloured red, pink or orange.

The final category is HOAT. These products use hybrid organic acid technology in an ethylene glycol base with some silicates in the formulation alongside the organic corrosion inhibitors. The product is usually coloured green and is not recommended for use in historic vehicles.

The Federation is still researching this problem but our advice at the moment is:

· only use blue coloured IAT antifreeze in historic vehicles;

· only use OAT products (‘advanced’ or ‘long life’antifreeze) if the vehicle used it when new and if specifically directed by the vehicle’s manufacturer;

· never mix different types of antifreeze without thoroughly flushing out the system;

· always replace the coolant within the time scale specified by the antifreeze manufacturer as the corrosion inhibitors break down over time.

 

01/04/10

In the article in the last newsletter, we said ‘Bluecol and Blue Star are well known brand names and both of these are declared suitable for classic cars‘. Perhaps we should clarify that we were referring to the traditional blue coloured Bluecol – but the company also sell a red coloured Organic Acid Technology (OAT) product suitable only for modern cars, not classics. Even more confusingly, there is also Bluecol U which is marketed as a universal top up and not an antifreeze product with which you would fill the whole tank. The manufacturer has assured us that this is suitable for historic vehicles.

It has also been brought to our attention that Halford’s sell a blue-coloured ‘Advanced’ antifreeze which has a label containing the phrase: ‘Older vehicles can further benefit…’ but on further examination it was discovered that this product does indeed contain OAT and therefore cannot be recommended for historic engines.

Our postbag has also been swelled by correspondence relating to the extremely poisonous nature of ethylene glycol, indeed the Cats’ Protection League has gone so far as to start an on-line petition to highlight the danger to small animals accidentally ingesting tiny quantities of the product. Propylene glycol is much safer and one of our new trade supporters, AAA Solutions Ltd, is about to launch a propylene glycol based antifreeze specifically aimed at historic vehicles.

It does remain a rather confused picture, but the important facts to remember for historic vehicle owners are: use only Inorganic Additive Technology (IAT) products according to the manufacturer’s instructions and take great care with any liquid containing ethylene glycol.

 

Not sure where I stand here then! Mine is coloured green & was supplied by Rimmers from their TR catalogue!

All very confusing.

Cheers.

[McMuttley]

Monty (my cat i called monty, so is my neighbour's!) just hope that the rust eats your engine before the antifreeze.

 

Don thanks for that, I don't understand a word of it, but thanks.

 

I think for the Forum meet at Malvern next year we should play 'Antifreeze/Bols Roulette' 'every swig is a loser'

[ianc]

There are 2 drain cocks on the 4-pot TR;

1 - at the base of the radiator

2 - on the right-hand side of the cylinder block, above the starter motor and beneath the manifolds.

 

If, in its life, the car used water only as a coolant in summer and anti-freeze mixture in winter then , if the engine has not been re-built, there could be a considerable amount of sludge behind the drain cock on the block (even to the extent that the cock could be open, yet no coolant exiting - as we found on my brother's TR3 in the early 60s!).

 

It's a good idea to remove that cock and, using a length of wire or other tool(s), free as much as possible of any sludge whilst running water through the cooling system so as to flush it out of the orifice.

 

Ian Cornish.

[TR5tar]

I buy traditional Bluecol online, either from Amazon or direct at: http://bluecol.co.uk/index.php/products/anti-freeze-page/

 

Darren

[Fireman049]

If anyone would like to see the sludged up interior of my old 3A block then please PM me your eMail address.

When I fitted a replacement refurbished block I used a Dremel multi tool to open up the drain casting

on the inside of the block. The original drain was far too small and easily blocked by sludge.

I also painted the block interior with a thin coat of anti rust paint.

 

Tom.

[monty]

Monty (my cat i called monty, so is my neighbour's!) just hope that the rust eats your engine before the antifreeze.

 

Don thanks for that, I don't understand a word of it, but thanks.

 

I think for the Forum meet at Malvern next year we should play 'Antifreeze/Bols Roulette' 'every swig is a loser'

Sorry McMuttley but can you explain further about my green antifreeze as supplied by Rimmers? Is it no good?

With ref. to the name, Monty was also our cat until his very sad demise earlier this year.

Cheers.

[Lebro]

But our cat is called Monty

 

 

 

Bob

 

 

[greasemonkey]

We have our central heating boiler located outside and thus have to use an anti-freeze in the water just in case. The favoured brand is Fernox Alphi-11. The following posting on the VSCC website recently attracted my attention...

 

Quote..

 

I asked Fernox, Cookson Electronics, Forsyth Road, Sheerwater, Woking, Surrey GU21 5RZ to give me their comments, which follow:

" It is the properties of the inhibitor which produce the durable characteristics you refer to in respect of Fernox Alphi II.

As suppliers to the domestic heating market, we are obliged to use propylene glycol for the reasons of low toxicity you refer to in your article.

In the past, ethylene glycol was significantly cheaper than propylene glycol and so found favour for automotive applications.

However, the price differential is now much reduced and the safety benefits of propylene glycol should undoubtedly bring it into consideration for more widespread use.

Alphi 11 is used by a number of car enthusiasts as an antifreeze of choice and it is proven by the fact that it has been used for many years without any detrimental effects.

It is compatibility with metal and rubbers that is important and not the specific ingredient within the inhibitor/antifreeze blend.

While it is important to emphasise that the product was not specifically designed for automotive use, it does substantially surpass the requirements of BS6580 the standard for automotive antifreeze.

Whilst propylene glycol is less dangerous than ethylene glycol, contact with skin and paint should still be avoided, as should ingestion.

We recommend users to refer to the manufacturers product and safety data sheets for more specific information concerning product safety and disposal."

 

Now, Alphi-11 is far from cheap but plumber's merchants, Wickes etc do sometimes have it on offer . Fernox certainly know their stuff when it comes to corrosion inhibitors in water sytems that use several metals.

 

Food for thought!!

[vivdownunder]

It's best not to leave discarded ethylene glycol laced coolant sitting around in an open container. Dispose of quickly and thoughfully.

 

It's highly toxic to dogs and cats and just one quick lick can prove fatal.

 

Viv

[Lebro]

Just purchased 5Ltrs of Blue Bluecol (2 year protection ethelene glycol etc) from "Andrew Page" (Used to be called "Camberley Autofactors")

Shelf price £15.45, but ask for trade & you get it for £14. was nearer £18 from Amazon.

 

Bob.

[McMuttley]

Flushing ?

 

After I drain the existing watter n muck and unplug holes as best I can. Does one flush once or twice or thrice. Hot or cold water? Run the engine between top up flushes ? A gentle pour or blast through with the hose pipe (sounds too messy and toxic !)

[Lebro]

Probably all of above !

With all drain taps open (or preferably removed altogether), & heater valve fully open, drop hose pipe in the rad filler hole (with cap not fitted), turn on full, and wait till the level comes up to the top (it should do, even with the taps open). Then run the engine, which forces the clean water round the system. It will probably splash a bit especially it you have the mechanical fan fitted.

Stop engine, turn off hose - wait till drained, then repeat. keep going till the water runs out clean from all orifices (the car's that is)

 

Go indoors to warm up.

re-fit taps, turn them off, & fill with diluted antifreeze (the correct sort) 30% to 50% depending on how cold you think it's going to get)

 

Bob.

[McMuttley]

Where does all the excess water go during this foul process ?

 

 

Heater valve ? (something else to look up ... huff)

 

​Bob, you missed the stage that says - take it to the man at the garage round the corner and let him make a mess of his floor !

[rogerguzzi]

Hello All

This is a good place for plumbing stuff.

 

http://www.bes.co.uk/products/108.asp#20029

 

I have this antifreeze in our solar water heating system and it has not froze in the last 2 years and it is a lot cheaper than fernox(but someone has to pay for the advertising?) and it is non toxic as all domestic additives are meant to be.

 

Roger

[Steve R]

Where does all the excess water go during this foul process ?

 

 

Heater valve ? (something else to look up ... huff)

 

​Bob, you missed the stage that says - take it to the man at the garage round the corner and let him make a mess of his floor !

Heater valve is on the top of the block and looks as though it's escaped from your airing cupboard.

Steve

[McMuttley]

top left next to the 710 cap ?