Value of 4As

[Ernest]

Hi

 

As can be noted from a posting I made a few weeks ago I am trying to tie down the identity of a TR4A

 

I am in the process of funding a restoration of a 4A - I was originally told by the restorers that they were 99% sure that the car was a UK registered - Red, Surrey Top, O/D, RHD. It seems that they can't now find the 'commission plate'

 

The Heritage Centre has initially informed me that the car was originally: Racing green (I had thought that the TR4A green was conifer?), LHD, did not have a O/D, and was made June 1965 and exported to Jacksonville USA.

Jon Marshall says that the car was on the register's record in 1981 as being Red, and RHD, with O/D and that it would have been unusual for a TR4A to be brought back from USA at this relatively early date.

 

I am getting a bit desperate now as the car is almost finished and large final payment due.

So......the questions I have are:

 

- Can anyone offer any informative reflection on the above seeming mismatch of info.?

- If I assume that is has been repatriated and converted to RHD, overdrive added, etc to what extent

would this impact upon the car's value?

 

Any help on this would be much appreciated

 

Ernest

[Geko]

Hi Ernest, quick one. Color: racing green and conifer green are basically the same. Explanation on this tread . Work fact-based: Identify whether the current RHD is original or a conversion. The modifications are easy to identify on the body (pedal assembly holes, steering column hole, wiring straps). Have you been able to identify the body number (the little plate next to the master cylinders) ? Once this is done then you can start speculating. Re value, same as my earlier comment: no impact on hard value but original RHD tend to be more sought after than the conversions...in the UK.

[HPMUIRT]

My TR4A had an interesting history and now has overdrive, surrey top and wire wheels although it never came out of the factory with overdrive or wires, It was rebuilt and it is in superb condition. I have got an agreed value on the car at £29000 and it was originally shipped to the US as a LHD car. In some ways the LHD cars are better because they haven't suffered as badly from tin worm. The DVLA have been known to make absolute blinders with some logbooks / V5s so it may well be a problem with the DVLA. My car had the wrong engine number detailed as someone had taken the wrong numbers from the cylinder head assuming it was the engine number.

 

I had to provide 4 photographs of my car to Towergate including 2 of the outside one of the engine bay and one of the interior. The values I see are mostly based on the condition of the car and whether it has been rebuilt and to what standard etc.

 

If it is a TR4A then prices have gone silly because TR5 prices are through the roof. The most expensive one I have seen recently was £39,995 with Camberley Marine in Hampshire. I don't know what you've paid but a decent usable car seems to fetch £15000 - £20,000 and restored cars between £25000 and £30000 maybe a bit more with dealers.

 

I would buy based on current condition. I would rather have a lovely car with a slightly sketchy history than a genuine UK car that is rusting from the inside out!!

[Guest ntc]

Hi

 

As can be noted from a posting I made a few weeks ago I am trying to tie down the identity of a TR4A

 

I am in the process of funding a restoration of a 4A - I was originally told by the restorers that they were 99% sure that the car was a UK registered - Red, Surrey Top, O/D, RHD. It seems that they can't now find the 'commission plate'

 

The Heritage Centre has initially informed me that the car was originally: Racing green (I had thought that the TR4A green was conifer?), LHD, did not have a O/D, and was made June 1965 and exported to Jacksonville USA.

Jon Marshall says that the car was on the register's record in 1981 as being Red, and RHD, with O/D and that it would have been unusual for a TR4A to be brought back from USA at this relatively early date.

 

I am getting a bit desperate now as the car is almost finished and large final payment due.

So......the questions I have are:

 

- Can anyone offer any informative reflection on the above seeming mismatch of info.?

- If I assume that is has been repatriated and converted to RHD, overdrive added, etc to what extent

would this impact upon the car's value?

 

Any help on this would be much appreciated

 

Ernest

Ernest

There is a few things you need to consider Triumph would paint any car in any colour at that time, the DVLA and the others make errors when it comes to commission numbers. Most important is the condition of the car and the amount you are paying, don't let a good one slip you by.

[HPMUIRT]

I think Triumph Racing Green was also know as Conifer Green around that time.....and the DVLA just call it Green

 

And Towergate now do not discriminate between original LHD and RHD cars - they value them the same and quite rightly so.

 

Some Californian Black Plate cars are worth more I think.

Edited November 24, 2014 by HPMUIRT

[stuart]

As noted the valuations currently are the same for Left Or Right hand drive cars. Having had and worked on quite a few cars that have come back from dry States i.e California, Arizona, Nevada, West Texas, New Mexico I know which I would rather have compared to a UK original any day of the week. If the conversion has been done properly (and its not difficult but there are lazy bodgers around) then there is no trace and 9 out 10 people wont know the difference unless they know what they are looking at and or they check the comm plates.

 

Always go by the condition of the shell and the chassis. Competent restorations these days will outlast 90% of our members thats for sure!

 

As for Comm numbers DVLA are notorious for not being able to read their own writing and often US cars especially Californian ones were registered on engine numbers or California DMV imported car stamped plate numbers.

So even if the car in question has had the addition of an overdrive and a Surrey top thats nothing more than any owner originally could have had added to his car after he had bought it by his local dealers and lets face it that has added in current day value at least £4K to the value of the car!

.

Stuart.

[monty]

As noted the valuations currently are the same for Left Or Right hand drive cars. Having had and worked on quite a few cars that have come back from dry States i.e California, Arizona, Nevada, West Texas, New Mexico I know which I would rather have compared to a UK original any day of the week. If the conversion has been done properly (and its not difficult but there are lazy bodgers around) then there is no trace and 9 out 10 people wont know the difference unless they know what they are looking at and or they check the comm plates.

 

Always go by the condition of the shell and the chassis. Competent restorations these days will outlast 90% of our members thats for sure!

 

As for Comm numbers DVLA are notorious for not being able to read their own writing and often US cars especially Californian ones were registered on engine numbers or California DMV imported car stamped plate numbers.

So even if the car in question has had the addition of an overdrive and a Surrey top thats nothing more than any owner originally could have had added to his car after he had bought it by his local dealers and lets face it that has added in current day value at least £4K to the value of the car!

.

Stuart.

Agreed Stuart. My 4A was originally new to California, came back & totally restored including conversion to r/h drive & I am damned if I can see the 'join'!

Cheers.

[Tr4Tony]

Hi Ernest

 

My take on this as a serial TR4 and TR4a owner is that the value of the car really depends on its condition as you can see it and touch it today. Much will be said on the relative merits of home market RHD and export LHD, converted to RHD, the addition of overdrives, Surrey tops, optional extras etc. and all of these add value to an extent, but you need to look at what is in front of you now. Matching numbers on a home market car etc is all very well, but a body off restored TR that looks and goes well is worth far more to the majority of buyers than an iffy one with good history or the right specification on paper. To my mind condition (and the honest evidence of how it arrived in that condition ie pictures, bills and what you can see) is everything.

 

If the car in the question has a correct identity (no matter if the commission plate is missing - as these can legitimately be replaced) I should think it matters little to most what colour it was when built, or indeed if overdrives, wire wheels or Surrey tops etc have been added later, although typically these add value as Stuart says. The absolute purists will doubtless disagree with me and the fact is that if a car was built that way initially it is certainly nice to see the original top spec, but the reality is that few TR4a's had all the bits we all want when first constructed (and those that did may well command a further premium) and over time many owners upped the spec and changed the colour etc. so most on the market are in this category.

 

In terms of value, my view is that the best TR4a isn't that far short of the TR4 and probably in the territory £30k to £35k, with concours cars finding even more money. This is the reality of where prices are, for good or bad and the evidence is out there to support that. I know of a near concours car that has just changed hands privately for nearly £40k and it would be hard to find a better one. that for me is probably the top price for all but the most pampered.

 

The reason for the value of cars at the moment is that the price of all good TR's has risen and most buyers and owners are aware that to fully restore a car professionally costs between £50k and £60k (or upwards for concours level preparation), so typically you would expect to see a 'used' car at around half that, so it's an easy barometer to judge against as a starting point.

 

If you're buying privately I would have thought you would generally pay less, from a dealer a bit more to cover their living and warranty - and if you buy from a good dealer it's probably worth it if you're not an experienced TR owner, as they take the risk on immediate major failures or misdescription away from you. I would suggest that a really nice 4a would be in the territory £25k to £35k, the value climbing with overdrives and Surrey top particularly and dealer sourced cars toward the top end.

 

As a real life example I sold my beautiful near concours TR4a a few years ago for £20k having spent about £2500 to re commission it and put it in a condition where I knew it would be trouble free for the new owner. It's now owned by a member in France and the correspondence I've had over the years shows that it's still a good one. If I were selling that car today I would be asking and expecting to get £30k for it. If I were handing over an £8k project car to an experienced professional for restoration, I'm sure the accompanying cheque would be £50k. If I were doing it at home and farming out painting and big things, I would expect the cheque to be £30k.

 

I hope that's useful comment for you.

 

regards

 

Tony

[Ernest]

Dear All

 

Thanks you all VERY much for these considered and helpful responses.

I have been happy with the process of restoration and was intending to complete (hopefully next week), but

I do feel much more reassured now that I have read your postings.

Hope to meet up sometime at a Register event.

The car is EWS 104C

Thanks again

Best Wishes

Ernest

[saggy]

and yet, recently a newly restored 4A with wires and overdrive but without surrey only attracted a top bid on ebay of £10,100 which is worrying to those who might have just lashed out £50/60,000 Sometimes buyers are there and sometimes they aren't. Some of these cars languish in dealers for ages until they get their price.

 

As demand has crept up slightly, it makes it more viable to restore relics from the graveyard. Then the increasing supply of cars being put back on the road reduces demand/price again. Basic economics really.

Like many things, people are either in it to make money or alternatively just for tinkering, polishing, fun, enjoyment and social. Can be many things to many people really which is what is so good about them.

Only my thoughts so I hope I haven't rattled anyone's cage.

[Tr4Tony]

Agreed Saggy but cars on eBay are rarely never what they seem and similarly the days of 'bargains' on eBay are largely long gone.

 

Like other forms of auction if cars don't reach the 'right' price the auctions are withdrawn or reserves aren't met, so the whole thing is pretty artificial unless you can see prices actually paid and money changed hands. At auction that needs to include premiums which can be between 15 and 25% in some cases, so again what seems cheap on the face of it often isn't.

 

The best value cars I've seen are sold by people who know what they are talking about (private or dealer) and inspected properly prior to the sale. The worst deals I've seen are blind auction purchases, because pictures (and sadly sometimes also sellers) hide a lot of horrors that only the experienced or well researched can find. There are many more projects and 'shockers' out there than really good TR's so it really isn't easy to find a good car at all. There is no substitute gpfor getting down and dirty and knowing what you want to buy.

 

I've just inspected a relatively pricey TR4 'rally' car for a friend and the pictures and spec were exemplary as you read them on the screen. We walked away because when I got into it there were all manner of expensive issues on what transpired to be a fairly bog standard car, albeit with the contents of a go faster catalogue bolted on. Buyer beware etc but that was nearly a very bad blind buy.

 

Regards

 

Tony

[2long]

Heres a nice dealer example, it seems to me. Not a 4A, but I'm not sure the values differ much.

 

Dan

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Triumph-TR4-1963-OEW-Lovely-condition-/291307991938?pt=Automobiles_UK&hash=item43d34f3382

Edited November 27, 2014 by 2long

[Mark1965TR4aBRG]

My 4a was built in 1965 and shipped to California. It came back to the UK in 1991 and since then was not registered until I completed (well nearly) the restoration and put it on the road back in RHD trim in 2010.

 

Green is by far the best colour!!

 

As for value.. I have no idea what part of my car is original or not and quite honestly I don't care as the body, chassis, engine are all A1 - not concours and certainly not how it left the factory (it goes better, stops better, handles better and wont squash me if it rolls) and the value of the car is on the up. Recently I have looked at modern English sports cars and with putting in say £10k on top of the TR within 2-3 years I'd be worse off.

 

As said above - it's the quality of the car now that matters so a rotten original RHD car is just that compared non a non rotten conversion!

 

Enjoy the ride and post some pic's..

Edited November 27, 2014 by Mark1965TR4aBRG

[Rookie]

If it is a TR4A then prices have gone silly because TR5 prices are through the roof. The most expensive one I have seen recently was £39,995 with Camberley Marine in Hampshire.

 

 

I bought that car (back in April), though not for the asking price - I got 10% off, which still makes it very expensive.

 

I don't think I would be able to resell it for that price, but I didn't buy it for profit. The thing is that it seems to be completely original (apart from a good respray in original royal blue), it's done a genuine 23k miles backed up by MOTs, the interior is virtually like new and it has all the best extras - o/d, hard and Surrey tops and wire wheels (later addition 72 spoke 5.5 J). And I can't find any rust on it and haven't found anything wrong with it (yet). It seems to be a genuine time warp car and I bought it because I don't think I'll ever find a better one.

 

Values are always tricky though. There's a lot of over-hyped dross on the market which doesn't seem to be selling. People are wising up to how much restoration costs.

Edited November 27, 2014 by Rookie

[marko]

Rookie,

 

I know all about that unique car you bought. I originally purchased it from the original owners daughter. It was on my doorstep in Shelfhanger near Diss and I purchased it from her and sold it to a gentleman collector near Newmarket in Suffolk who had the new wires fitted and some gentle recommissioning (If you want to ring me I can maybe fill you in with some more of the details).

 

It's worth noting it took me 2 years to buy it from initial contact and the Lady swore blind it had never had any paintwork done, certainly not in her ownership. I knew it had been painted but didn't want to argue with an 80+ year old lovely lady, it was her dads car and it was a total wrench for her to part with it but it just wasn't being used enough.

 

Lovely car and one of the best I've ever seen anywhere...

 

Mark - Classic Marks

www.classicmarks.co.uk

[AndyR100]

I am interested values because i'm a prospective purchaser.... timing isn't right for me at this moment, but i had spotted the white one in Nottingham which, at first sight, looks pretty good. A similarly priced BRG one in Northumberland appeared on Classiccarsforsale as well.

 

From what i've picked up, most good cars are all £16-20k, but anything over £20k needs to be quite special.

 

I rather like Powder/Wedgewood blue, but i suspect i'll drop all my colour-preferences with the right car at a fair price!

 

...... Andy

[mike ellis]

Andy,

 

You have a pm

 

Mike

[McMuttley]

There is what appears to be a nice blue one on the webernet in the mid 20's

 

(And its dark blue not girlie blue!)

 

http://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C561516

 

No connection, just wishing had spent that much on a 4 rather than a 3 !

 

3 anyone ?

Edited November 28, 2014 by McMuttley

[AndyR100]

Andy,

 

You have a pm

 

Mike

 

Thanks Mike, i have replied

cheers, Andy