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Triumph TR4 test day / track day in the States in-car


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Nice job, understeered like a ... for the first 3 laps then the tyres warmed.

 

Mick Richards

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Nice job, understeered like a ... for the first 3 laps then the tyres warmed.

 

Mick Richards

A little. 40* track meant the tires never got up to temp. We typically like to see around 180*-190* tire temps, they were hardly getting higher than 140*. There is a bit of time there in weather alone. Have to sort out the rear end too. Motor runs great, however. A month ago the car was seeing over 140mph at a different track and running out of gear (4.1 rear ratio), hence why 5th gear is so tall now.

 

I should note this is a friend's car with another friend driving it. The driver in this video typically runs a tube chassis, rear wheel drive Tercel and has a couple lap records.

Edited by hoffman900
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5th gear ?

 

Cheers

 

Alec

 

Yes. Vintage sanctioning bodies in the US allow cars with 4spd+overdrive to swap to a 5 speed as long as 5th gear is lower than .90. This of course comes with a weight penalty. It's a reliability issue. Taylor dog boxes, Richmond T5s, are all popular.

Edited by hoffman900
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Reliability issue ? :blink:

 

From the other side of the pond, looks more like an inability to differentiate between racing classic and vintage on the one hand, and hot rods on the other . . . . :rolleyes:

 

Nothing wrong with hot rods, I hasten to add, owning a couple myself.

 

But there's a world of difference between a period Veteran, Edwardian, Vintage, PVT or Classic racer . . . . and a hot rod.

 

Cheers

 

Alec

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Different rule set. We use old SCCA rules as a base. Even going back to the '60s, the cars were typically more modified than FIA based cars and subsequently faster.

 

How do you like these engine rules?

 

Bore: .040 over

Stroke: stock

Heads: same type as original

Oil system: same as original (ie: no dry sump unless it came from the factory)

No crank trigger ignitions

No carburetor choke sizes (converting from SUs to DCOE Webers will result in a bump up in class, however).

All other internals free.

 

It's all how you frame it. 'Vintage' here would probably rival some more bespoke series in Europe. Engines are usually in a higher state of tune (no standing starts, sprint format, overbore limited - so you have to rev them, 110 octane proper race gas (not AV, there is a difference) is not uncommon in these motors, some may use 112).

Edited by hoffman900
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Hoffman.

 

Lovely looking TR4.

 

My only query would be 140mph!!! From a 4 pot TR.

 

The top TR6 over here won't get near 130mph on sensible race gearing (i.e. one that give the fastest lap

time on a typical track). 4 pot TR top end is not going to be near a top 6 pot.

 

The Hoosiers, stylised numbers and cool split rims really make it look fantastic.

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Hoffman.

 

Lovely looking TR4.

 

My only query would be 140mph!!! From a 4 pot TR.

 

The top TR6 over here won't get near 130mph on sensible race gearing (i.e. one that give the fastest lap

time on a typical track). 4 pot TR top end is not going to be near a top 6 pot.

 

The Hoosiers, stylised numbers and cool split rims really make it look fantastic.

 

We have some large, fast tracks in the US. The track in the above video would be considered a "handling" track and the average speed for the laps above is ~84mph. We have other tracks where the average speed is more like 90+mph for a car like the above. The corner on the front straight is 105mph at the apex, and that's with the driver not pushing it 100%.

Edited by hoffman900
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John,

Here is another example:

Broadcast here:

http://speedcasttv.com/#/races/339

 

The blue car with the racing stripes is a 1500cc Spitfire that runs in SCCA FP. The rules are pretty liberal for the Spitfire as it's a 'full prep' classification.

Specs are pretty much as follows:

Engine:

.040 overbore max

Stock stroke

Stock connecting rod length

Valves must be stock size

No adding material to cylinder head

1 x 1 3/4 SU (yes, one).

Can convert to dry sump.

All connecting rods, valves, etc must be ferrous material.

... the rest of the specs are free...

 

Transmission:

Number of forward speeds is regulated, but can be any dog box - h pattern type. Cars limited to 4spds (like the Spitfire) typically have transmissions with a usable 1st gear.

 

Rear end:

Stock type, gear ratios can be whatever

 

Brakes:

Stock type (vented, non vented, calipers have to be stock), compounds free, can convert rear to disc as long as it doesn't exceed front disc diameter.

 

Suspension:

Type and mounting points are free (no pushrod suspensions, however) as long as it fits within the confines of the chassis. Track and wheelbase is regulated.

 

Aero:

Only an air dam / splitter provided it doesn't exceed the front most point in the car when viewed from above (measured with a plumb bob).

 

Tires:

Traditionally cantilever slicks, but proper racing radials are being developed and used.

 

The Miatas are 1.6L cars are limited in what they can do to the engines (max compression and valve lift limit, can only port match 1" from the head / intake flange), Transmissions are the same as above and so are brakes, suspensions have to use the stock locations and must be the same type. Typically a FP Miata will make around 165whp on a dynojet (figure around 185bhp). As you can see the Spitfire (while it does have better aero) doesn't loose much on the top end and they're touching around 130mph at the end of the fastest straightaways.

 

Our vintage rules over here are much more conservative in the chassis and tire department, but transmissions are the same, and motors can be healthier (vintage is less serious than SCCA, but to run up front at serious meetings, you have to keep pushing the development cycle) as they're not restricted to ferrous materials, stock valve sizes, stock rod length, and carburetors are pretty much unlimited. As you can imagine, a TR4 (or any other type) to the same level, accounting for certain allowances in vintage, is going to be a very healthy motor ;)

 

There is a lot of trickle down NASCAR and other US domestic V8 racing R&D in the best motors. Modern, light slipper pistons with thin low tension ring packs, modern camshaft / valvetrain technology (strongest pushrods you can fit, modern lobe profiles, billet parts, etc), exhaust system design done by people who work on the pro level, and a serious amount of flowbench R&D (due to the scale of the motorsports world in the US, there are some VERY good cylinder head people that will work on oddball stuff to break up the monotony of their typical work). We're pretty lucky in the US to have easy access to this technology and a lot of the designers working at parts suppliers who work with multi million dollar professional racing programs are more accessible than you think.

 

Another interesting note, in the same class this year at a tigher track, a 1275cc MG Midget with the same rules as the Spitfire (it can use 2 x 1.5" SUs, but they're typically thru-bored, etc.) smoked the field with a 20yo karter behind the wheel. The big story was how powerful the motor is. It was a one race, one shot deal, as the motor was reported to be 'trashed' at the end and it was installed the day before after the last qualifying sessions. Watch it out pull the Miatas and a 1500cc Super 7.

 

(first two laps)

http://speedcasttv.com/#/races/402(broadcast, the first lap is great)

 

 

Cheers,

Bob

Edited by hoffman900
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  • 6 months later...

In car from the previous 'Kastner Cup' weekend at Summit Point, West Virginia.

 

The driver is 81yo (will be 82 in a few weeks). He does all his own engine assembly and car prep still. He's doing pretty well for being an 'old guy'. Just cruising around after he gets by the silver TR6 as he was trying to save the car for races later in the weekend.

 

video from another TR4. The start is interesting.

Edited by hoffman900
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Chris,

 

Dick has done a great job of developing the car the last decade or so. What he can't do himself, he knows how to track down the talent to do it, which has always been a key to his success.

 

Dick half jokingly says he has to make the car faster every year to make up for him getting older. He'll be the first to admit he's nowhere near as fast as his prime, but he's still doing great!

 

Bob

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5spds are common on the front running vintage race cars (TR4s, MGBs, etc.) in the US, as long as they came / homologated with a 4spd and overdrive. This of course carries a 75lb weight penalty and 5th gear must be 0.90 or numerically lower.

 

Quaife (Borg-Warner) T9

GForce (Borg-Warner) T5

and Houseman (Toyota) T50 are common.

 

Quaife, GForce, Houseman all make custom dog box, straight tooth, upgraded internals for those model transmissions.

 

In-car from the 3rd place running TR6 in the Kastner Cup race. Rain starts coming down ~3 laps in and the cars with more/deeper tread start marching through.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4dTeOwnwGQo

 

Edited by hoffman900
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  • 3 months later...
  • 6 months later...

Even more impressive is the driver Dick Stockton who must be in his late 70's and was the only driver to beat Bob Tullius in a TR4 back in the early 1960's.

 

I met him at Mid Ohio in 2002 when we took the 8 British Triumphs over to compete in the 50th Anniversary race.

 

Both car and driver are stil very competitive.

 

Mike

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Even more impressive is the driver Dick Stockton who must be in his late 70's and was the only driver to beat Bob Tullius in a TR4 back in the early 1960's.

 

I met him at Mid Ohio in 2002 when we took the 8 British Triumphs over to compete in the 50th Anniversary race.

 

Both car and driver are stil very competitive.

 

Mike

 

Dick is 82yo! The car is waaayyy faster than it was then.

 

Rev range is up to 7k - it can go higher if necessary, but power is falling off up there.

Edited by hoffman900
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I am hoping to be at the 2017 Kastner Cup race at Blackhawk Farms, Illinois so I should see Dick and all the Friends of Triumph

racers again. Last time I saw them was at Road America in 2007.

 

Mike

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