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I attended the majority of Oulton Park race meetings during the 60s, TRs were a particular interest, but this one I do not recall.

 

Classic car dealers generally are blessed with a generous dollop of optimistic imagination, and never more so than when they are selling old sports cars with a whiff of competition history about them . . . .

 

This car seems to have been endowed with a greater than average helping of motor coper's finest bull . . . . .

 

Cheers

 

Alec

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I have checked the entries listed in Tome 6 of Frédéric Reydellet's "Les Triumph en Compétition" which covers the following European Rallies:

1962: Monte, Tulip, Alpine, Geneva, Liège, RAC

1963: Monte, Tulip, Alpine, Liège, RAC.

 

VJA20 appears solely in the 1962 Monte, competition number 46, crewed by E. Hodson/L. Jones (GB) - Sortie de route.

Private entries of TR4s do appear in some of these Rallies, by the way.

 

As Graham Robson has stated above, the Works' (VC) cars, under him as Competition Secretary, did not enter the 1962 Monte because they were not prepared at the time, and Harry Webster permitted Graham to navigate Peter Procter in the 1962 Monte in a Sunbeam Rapier, where they achieved 4th place.

 

Following the 1962 Monte, VJA20 might have been used in lesser rallies in the UK or Europe, but one would have to search entry lists to confirm (or otherwise).

 

Ian Cornish

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Looks like this might be the source of some of the colourful accounts . . . .

 

jacybrean.blogspot.com/2014/11/monte-carlo-or-bust.html

 

Cheers

 

Alec

Will you get points on an artistic license if you get caught?

 

Steve

Edited by Steve R
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There were many TRs used in competition at club level, and tracking their history after half a century is difficult, to say the least.

 

It is often possible to track results of successful drivers through the columns of Autosport or of Motoring News, patient working through the event reports, but that's a lengthy business at Beaulieu or wherever.

 

Individual organising clubs may have an archivist or two whose records go back through the 1960s, but even here it will be a lot of patient legwork to plod through old entry and results lists - what little record remains, that is.

 

Individual cars which competed at international level are easier to track, in the sense that their achievements were more widely publicised at the time, and international event records tend to be better preserved than mere national let alone club events.

 

In the greater scheme of things, the career of one of dozens of club competitor TR cars or drivers is of little consequence, except perhaps for someone closely connected to the car or driver. There is unlikely to be any financial bonus at the end of the efforts, financial premiums are reserved for cars of pukka 'ex-works' or successful international competitor status. Even a one-off Monte entry that finished up on its roof isn't really going to excite the market . . . . .

 

Nevertheless, you can't really blame any classic dealer for trying to glamorise a humble machine in the interests of making an extra grand or three in profit. If the social aspirants are willing to pay a small fortune for some similar machine that is supposed to be 'ex-works' . . . . . and in reality is about as pukka as a sixteenth century eskimo golf club or a Japanese cricket bat of similar vintage . . . . then why not try a flyer, talking up the mundane with a good line in bull ?

 

Caveat emptor . . . . .

 

Cheers

 

Alec

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Not sure what you're implying by 'disappeared' . . . . . ?

 

The TR4 Registrar may have some knowledge of an individual TR4, but passing on that knowledge is likely to be restricted to TR Register members with a legitimate reason for enquiry . . . . nothing pejorative implied there, I hasten to add, but for obvious reasons there is an obligation to maintain a reasonable degree of confidentiality, quite apart from the provisions of Data Protection legislation etc.

 

Past experience suggests that there is particular need for caution when anything involving suggestions of 'competition' let alone 'ex-works' provenance comes into the equation - sellers can and do become rather upset if the antecedents of their offering are called into question. There is, after all, a significant financial premium attached to anything claiming any sort of international competition history. There are far more classic cars in a general sense claiming such provenance than are actually pukka . . . . .

 

Classic dealers can be wonderfully inventive when it comes to talking up history, and they are usually also pretty efficient at determining what can be achieved by diligent research . . . . any statements that are not absolutely definitive I would take with the proverbial bucket of salt, and suggestions of further research being needed, for example, I would dismiss out of hand. If there was anything positive to be gained by such research, the dealer would have done it in the interests of enhancing profitability.

 

Edwin Hodson had a long history of entries in the Monte, generally as a privateer (he was a man of some means), but not as far as I can recall with any conspicuous success - he was involved with a wide variety of cars, and the TR4 exercise I suspect was a one-off venture with his local Triumph dealer, Hollingdrakes, and not any sort of long term association with Standard Triumph. If I recall correctly, the various Fords in which he competed came from Quicks, another major name in the North West ?

 

By the way, what is your particular interest in this car - as a potential purchaser, or a chum of the seller, or what ?

 

Cheers

 

Alec

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I have had a look at the son's description of his father's exploits and have added some comments.

 

Triumph fitted his two-seater TR4A (TR4As did not exist in 1962) with engine number one and made him leader of their rally team for the Liège-Rome-Liège Rally (the Liège Rally took place in August – there would not have been TR4s available in August 1961 and Reydellet's Tomes show that this TR4 was not in the 1962 or 1963 Liège). Later that year he also privately entered the car, red, low and lethally quick, in the Monte-Carlo Rally (the Monte took place in January, and this car was entered in the 1962 Monte, but crashed; it did not enter the 1963 Monte) that then still ran on public roads.

 

Racks were welded on to help carry the four spare wire wheels fitted with spiked ice tyres (even with a boot rack, no more than 2 extra wheels with tyres could have been carried in/on a TR – making 3 in all! Or were 2 more wheels with tyres mounted on the roof as well? The photo does not show any sign of either boot or roof rack). This was Father’s twelfth or thirteenth entry as a private competitor and he spurned the modern, dependent, corporate idea of a support team in a van carrying all the spares they might need. (Hodson/Gregory competed in the 1960 Monte in the TR4, and Hodson/Jones competed in the 1961 Monte – in both years, they started from Glasgow, but both attempts were "Abandoned". The car was a Triumph, although Reydellet does not list Model or Registration Number – could have been a Herald in 1961, in which one might be able to fit 4 spare wheels with tyres. From Reydellet’s comprehensive Tomes, Hodson did not compete in any Liège Rally between 1955-1963 in a Triumph or Standard, but, as Alec mentions, he could have used a car of another make; however it is difficult to imagine a British private entry in such a killer of an event, lasting almost 4 days, so far from home and without support should anything go wrong).

 

I pitied the would-be navigator who would sit in this madly bucking seat for three days, inside the protective steel cage welded under the roof (the regulations in 1962 & 1963 did NOT PERMIT a roll cage to be fitted for these European Rallies, which is why Triumph used the ‘Surrey’ with metal lid, and the Austin Healeys used a hard-top), all the way to Monte Carlo, head buried in maps and shouting warnings of what twists and dangers the road ahead presented.

 

Ian Cornish

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Hi Ian,

 

Edwin Hodson had a lengthy career as a Monte Carlo Rally entrant, and presumably gained experience in UK events before making the Monte his annual pilgrimage. At least some of his attempts got him a long way, and a closer scrutiny of his achievements over the years could be interesting ? Serious amateur, not a no-hoper.

 

He was a fairly well known personality in the Manchester area during the 1950s and 60s, and I think his international rallying dated back to the beginning of the 50s - and carried on through the two decades and on into the 70s. An accountant if I remember correctly, hence not best regarded by my father, one of Her Majesty's Inspectors of Taxes !

 

I'm afraid the son's romantic account perhaps does his father a disservice, and certainly clouds the history of the modest TR involvement.

 

As far as this particular car for sale is concerned, I'd tread very cautiously - as with all cars for which any sort of 'history' is claimed. As far as I'm concerned, if a car doesn't have a continuously documented history and some independent evidence to warrant the documentation, buckets of salt are justified. Either the history is bombproof or it isn't worth a light . . . . .

 

We can all remember 70s and 80s TR restorations, many of which involved a log book dragged out of the back of a drawer and half a dozen scrappers as parts donors . . . . nothing new there, Not to mention the cloning from a boring boggomobile in the metal to a more enticing historical artefact, courtesy of a log book switch. Let alone Queen Anne's Axe syndrome.

 

Cheers

 

Alec

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I'm glad Ian Cornish went into such forensic detail in dissecting the claims made for this car, almost all of which are spurious. At least it stops other observers being accused of bias/jealousy/senility.

 

Let's just treat it as an 'interesting', rather than a 'significant' TR4, and leave it at that.

 

Hon. Pres.

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Hi Tom,

 

current condition/appearance of the car isn't under discussion . . . . from what I can see it looks to be a decent enough job, subject to the usual devil in the detail caveats which only the Mk1 eyeball will reveal.

 

It's the accounts attached to the car which are subject to scrutiny - and unfortunately it does seem as if at least some of these tales are less than entirely pukka. A great shame, in the sense that Edwin Hodson was a determined privateer of some note, and his exploits over three decades would doubtless make for fascinating reading.

 

I rather doubt that eyeballing the car itself would contribute much, if anything, to the accounts of its history ?

 

Cheers

 

Alec

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Every day, I receive an email from "Classic Driver Daily", and today's news included a shot of Hodson's old car. When I clicked on the photo, the description did NOT contain any claim that the car was a Works' machine, solely that it had competed in the '62 Monte Carlo Rally - which is correct - but the description of the reason for it failing to finish does seem to minimise the magnitude of the 'incident', which left the car on its roof!

Perhaps the comments on this Forum persuaded the dealer that discretion might be a good idea!

Ian Cornish

 

VJA 20 is a very early TR4 built as a private entry for the 1962 Monte Carlo Rally. The driver, Edwin Hodson, was a well-known privateer and had been named by the Daily Express ‘the fastest man on ice’. Leaving from Glasgow Hodson was considered a strong contender, failing to finish the rally just a few miles from Monte Carlo following a slight altercation with a snow drift!

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The Pendine Historic Cars Ltd website now carries the following description of VJA 20

 

" Triumph had, ever since the inception of the TR, been a strong, regular contender on the international rally scene. VJA 20 is a very early TR4 built as a private entry for the 1962 Monte Carlo Rally. The driver, Edwin Hodson, was a well-known privateer and had been named by the Daily Express ‘the fastest man on ice’. Leaving from Glasgow Hodson was considered a strong contender, failing to finish the rally just a few miles from Monte Carlo following a slight altercation with a snow drift! Restored to a very high standard, this is a historically important TR4 that, in the right hands, is not just an entry but a winner of the best historic rallies in the world. "

 

That seems a reasonable enough description to me, and all credit to Pendine for taking a responsible approach to historical accuracy. Doubtless in the first instance they took on board Noel Hodson's account of his father's exploits in good faith . . . . and one cannot blame the vendors for that. Informed discussion has brought to light additional information, and the description amended accordingly.

 

The photograph of the inverted TR4, the Monte crash, published on a French forum and forwarded by Julian Stephens, suggests that it was rather more than just a gentle encounter with a snowdrift - more like a miraculous survival as far as the driver and navigator were concerned.

 

VJA20_RMC-62-046-2_zpsf1c05a03.jpg

 

Cheers

 

Alec

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Said picture was first published in AUTOCAR in its Monte report in January 1962, and was taken by staff photographer Ron Easton. The car was still there, inverted, when Peter Procter and I (in a 'works' Sunbeam Rapier) went past two hours later....

 

Happy New Year - and all credit to Pendine Historic Cars for coming clean.

 

Hon. Pres.

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Some interesting observations from an old pal who has a reasonable recollection of the rally scene in the north west in the 1950s and 60s. We are talking five or six decades ago, obviously these observations are far from gospel.

 

He recalls Edwin Hodson as being singularly rapid, as long as the car kept going, but somewhat erratic and given to over-driving the car until it broke, or the rally ended, whichever came first - usually the former. Apparently in the earlier 50s he would have a go in any car available, no matter how obsolete or unsuited, if offered a co-drive . . . . suggesting that his first Monte was in the mid-50s but in a 40s Vauxhall, probably a Wyvern. The mind boggles.

 

Evidently by the latter 50s he was quick enough to have run a Jaguar saloon with some degree of 'official' support, but that was withdrawn and he switched to TRs with some amount of factory assistance, perhaps channelled through Hollingdrakes ? Supposedly he did the Monte twice in TR3s (and other rallies), the third Monte run being the TR4 - which should have been with factory support, but that wasn't forthcoming in the end as the factory had packed up competition. Which seems to tie in with Graham's factual comments.

 

Disillusioned with Triumph, Hodson switched to Fords, I'm told campaigning Cortina, Corsair, Escort and Capri through into the 1970s - retiring from international events around age 60.

 

The TR4 was described as ' a hell of a mess, twisted to b*gg*ry ', and evidently delays in obtaining parts (start with a new chassis) did not encourage EH to stick with Triumph.

 

My interest in rallying is limited, and my knowledge rather less, but have any of our more knowledgeable historians any traces of Edwin Hodson competing in sidescreen TRs ?

 

Cheers,

 

Alec

Edited by Alec Pringle
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Well now that's solved, maybe instead I'll have a look at that record holding 1954 Healey 100 they have for sale, err, sorry, I meant 2007 ! I do think that heading is also a tad misleading !

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I'm afraid that after the passing of 50 or 60 years, one recalls only the significant highlights such as Monte entries, not the detail of local club events. It's not exactly selective memory, but as we keep on learning new stuff, some of the insignificant older stuff falls out of the filing cabinet to make room . . . .

 

In any case, there were quite a few chaps like EH who might have concentrated on just one or two events per year, or even saved up for an every other year entry, rather than being regular participants at a more modest level of motor sport, of whatever discipline.

 

Judging by the appearance of the inverted TR4. that looks to me like a potential major rebuild exercise, at best. Probably got repaired at great expense and that was that for the season . . . .

 

The only way of finding out about the history of minor events is diligent research through the archives of major resources such as those at Beaulieu, Gaydon or Sparkford, and perhaps joining forums that concern themselves with the history of rallying or racing at club level. I've had the same experience researching the competition history of my friend Julian's 1966 Mallock, it's a long slow exercise which bears remarkably little fruit for a huge amount of effort. There are no short cuts.

 

As for VJA 20, I'd suspect a car that had its one event in the spotlight, and how much of the original (if any) remains in the car today is another story - and another subject for diligent and painstaking research, one which will probably also bear a minimal crop of fruit.

 

Cheers

 

Alec

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from what I have read about Hodson I don't think money was an issue. I do agree that he more than likely sold the car after te Monte but where did it go.

 

Also after its restoration has the car been seen at any events, local rallies post 1990. Why does it have te white circles for numbers and a fire extinguisher? Has it done some local regularity events,?

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