AL TR250 Posted October 6, 2014 Report Share Posted October 6, 2014 While covering myself in waxoyl yesterday, I noticed that the offside bracket (on wishbone) for the anti roll bar is not looking great and needs replaced. A couple of questions: 1. If I drive the car and it gives way, is it likely to do any damage? 2. When I replace the bracket, is there any tension on the bar? Is it better done jacked up or sitting on the ground? 3. 'Everyone' seems to think poly bushes are the way forward. Is now the moment to fit some to the ARB and will they really make any difference in this area? Thanks as always for your comments Ali Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Geko Posted October 6, 2014 Report Share Posted October 6, 2014 (edited) While covering myself in waxoyl yesterday, I noticed that the offside bracket (on wishbone) for the anti roll bar is not looking great and needs replaced. Sway bar is an accessory, not an original part and after a while all brackets tend to twist that way. I'm inclined to believe that it's just its "matured" shape. A couple of questions: 1. If I drive the car and it gives way, is it likely to do any damage? NO 2. When I replace the bracket, is there any tension on the bar? Is it better done jacked up or sitting on the ground? NO tension but it's always easier to work with a jack 3. 'Everyone' seems to think poly bushes are the way forward. Is now the moment to fit some to the ARB and will they really make any difference in this area? No idea but I doubt you would feel any difference as some can hardly feel the difference with and without the sway bar Thanks as always for your comments Ali ARB bracket.jpg Edited October 6, 2014 by Geko Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Peter Cobbold Posted October 6, 2014 Report Share Posted October 6, 2014 (edited) In a bend that compresses the spring on the other side the damaged end of the arb will rise, and the wheel alongside it will droop. It will not stay in the position in your photo.So I would not drive if its likely to break. It will be moreorless solid when you try to disconnect it if the other wheel is on the ground. Chassis on blocks, and jack under each wheel gives you precise control of the arb. Wear in the bushes on the chassis will not help antiroll bar function. So the less play the better on all its bushes. Peter Edited October 6, 2014 by Peter Cobbold Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jerrytr5 Posted October 6, 2014 Report Share Posted October 6, 2014 I like to use these clamps as they are more precise: https://www.merlinmotorsport.co.uk/s/suspension-steering/associated-suspension-parts/anti-roll-bar-components which are the same as these: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/IMPERIAL-STAUFF-PIPE-CLAMP-1-4-OD-2-OD-COMPLETE-/320825022881?pt=UK_DIY_Materials_Plumbing_MJ&var=&hash=item76c16d88dd But you do need to weld on the mounting plate. Jerry Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Geko Posted October 6, 2014 Report Share Posted October 6, 2014 Yes, the ARB seems to be too long at its ends and putting the links constantly under load hence twisting the brackets. One way to relieve that load would be by changing the angle of the link through adding shims behind the front clamps (or blocks as above) so as to bring the ARB forward Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ianc Posted October 6, 2014 Report Share Posted October 6, 2014 The bracket is most likely to give way in a corner, as that's when a bending load is being applied. Under such conditions, the sudden loss of the ARB's restraint could land you in real difficulty and you might leave the road. So, fix the bracket, or remove the ARB until you can get the bracket fixed. If both wheels are at the same level with respect to the chassis, there is no tension in the ARB. Polybushes (or nylon, if you are competing seriously) are a very good idea - far superior to rubber, which is likely to wear out quite rapidly (same goes for the wishbone bushes). Ian Cornish Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AL TR250 Posted October 6, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 6, 2014 Hmm. Now I am getting nervous, as I am supposed to go for a run out on Wednesday with a bunch of like-minded folk, over some quite bendy narrow roads! Sounds like I might be better taking it off. I am not sure how strong the brackets are. I see Moss do an uprated ball joint link as well. Anyone any experience of this? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Peter Cobbold Posted October 6, 2014 Report Share Posted October 6, 2014 A front arb normally promotes understeer. So without it the car might be a little bit less likely to find a hedge bonnet first. You'll probably find a liitle more roll in corners but I doubt its going to cause alarming oversteer. ( unless you have a rear arb). Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Geko Posted October 6, 2014 Report Share Posted October 6, 2014 Hmm. Now I am getting nervous, as I am supposed to go for a run out on Wednesday with a bunch of like-minded folk, over some quite bendy narrow roads! Sounds like I might be better taking it off. I am not sure how strong the brackets are. I see Moss do an uprated ball joint link as well. Anyone any experience of this? Don't worry, there's always an apocalyptic scenario around the bend but bottom line is: you judge. Re uprated links: I got my ARB second hand with twisted brackets like yours and worn out ball joint links. Looking at the setup I found that the original links were too long and with the wrong angle hence causing the brackets to twist. So I went to my accessory shop and choose shorter links (Toyota if I remember well) with wider base and including locking washers that would spread the load on the surface of the bracket, then I put the brackets in the vise and straightened them up and that was it. It's been on for a couple of months and there's no sign of overload on the links and brackets. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AL TR250 Posted October 6, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 6, 2014 Spreading the load with washer makes a lot of sense. Although thinking about the poly bushes - stiffer bushes might make the arb more effective but put more strain on the bracket...... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Geko Posted October 6, 2014 Report Share Posted October 6, 2014 There's something I'm puzzling with: I see you have minilites. 6"? with which tire width? Asking this because your pic seems to show that the tire is rubbing against the ARB... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RobH Posted October 6, 2014 Report Share Posted October 6, 2014 Surely the length of the vertical link will just alter the attitude of the whole ARB rather than bend the bracket? After all its the same length both sides. Could this be the result of grounding the bar on some obstruction, like a kerb or speed cushion for instance ? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Geko Posted October 6, 2014 Report Share Posted October 6, 2014 Surely the length of the vertical link will just alter the attitude of the whole ARB rather than bend the bracket? After all its the same length both sides. Yes, if no torsion is involved. Under torsion the longer the link the more concentrated force will pass through it before being dampened by the bush and reaching the ARB (imagine filling a syringe through the needle) hence the higher the chances of twisting the bracket because 1/ the force is not dampened by a bush on the wishbone and 2/ the bracket can't withstand torsion the same way the ARB does Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RobH Posted October 7, 2014 Report Share Posted October 7, 2014 (edited) Sorry but I don't buy that explanation. There is no extra force here just because the drop link is longer (the moment does not change with length because it is just transmitting force axially) and the components should have been sized to take the force that torque in the ARB produces so the bracket should be able to take it. However, if you are talking about the standoff distance of the vertical link from the bracket, yes that will be a factor - except that the other side which was seeing equal-and-opposite force did not bend? This still looks like impact damage to me. Edited October 7, 2014 by RobH Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Geko Posted October 7, 2014 Report Share Posted October 7, 2014 Sorry but I don't buy that explanation. There is no extra force here just because the drop link is longer (the moment does not change with length because it is just transmitting force axially) and the components should have been sized to take the force that torque in the ARB produces so the bracket should be able to take it. I guess that's what the discussion is about. I argue that the bracket is simply not strong enough to withstand that force because 1/ it is not dampened and 2/ the length of the link delays the transmission of the force from the wishbone to the ARB and acts like a bottle neck. I'm saying that the shorter and the thicker the link, the faster the force is transmitted to the ARB. An example could be the use of an electric relay to boost the power supply: the relay "shortens" the link. Part of the problem is also the positioning of the bracket on the edge of the wishbone witch is far from ideal.... However, if you are talking about the standoff distance of the vertical link from the bracket, yes that will be a factor - except that the other side which was seeing equal-and-opposite force did not bend? This still looks like impact damage to me. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AL TR250 Posted October 7, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 7, 2014 There's something I'm puzzling with: I see you have minilites. 6"? with which tire width? Asking this because your pic seems to show that the tire is rubbing against the ARB... I am impressed by your forensic abilities from such a small photo. Having had another squint underneath, the tyres on both sides are rubbing the ARB. There is an identical mark on the nearside of the bar as well - photo attached. I am not sure what size the rims are: they are marked 15J. The tyres are 185/65R15. Excuse my ignorance but is there an easy fix for this i.e. a stop on the steering or spacers on the wheels??? Impact damage could be a possibility as the front clamps have clearly had a close encounter with something hard. As it is LHD it may be that it hit a pothole on the side of the road with previous owner. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TR NIALL Posted October 7, 2014 Report Share Posted October 7, 2014 Check the inside of your Discs also as they maybe Grinding against the Trunnion Bolt. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
peejay4A Posted October 7, 2014 Report Share Posted October 7, 2014 There should be a steering stop bolted to the trunnion, part number 142403. It might be missing. Also the original was drilled off centre but the repros seem to be centre drilled which means they don't work particularly well. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Peter Cobbold Posted October 7, 2014 Report Share Posted October 7, 2014 The off-centre drilling makes the lock adjustable, moreorless. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AL TR250 Posted October 7, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 7, 2014 Thanks Pete. I will have a look. I see the part number has changed to 156111 in my Moss catalogue. Presumably there is not a lot of adjustment if it is just drilled off-centre?? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Peter Cobbold Posted October 7, 2014 Report Share Posted October 7, 2014 Thanks Pete. I will have a look. I see the part number has changed to 156111 in my Moss catalogue. Presumably there is not a lot of adjustment if it is just drilled off-centre?? Rotate it so the 'fat' side is facing a trunnion pad to get least lock, on both side of the car. It does make a difference. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AL TR250 Posted October 7, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 7, 2014 Spot on about the steering stop. Nothing at either side. What a great thing these forums are (and all those who contribute their knowledge). 2 problems solved for the price of one! Thanks for all your help. Ali Quote Link to post Share on other sites
peejay4A Posted October 7, 2014 Report Share Posted October 7, 2014 (edited) Good to see a problem solved. You could probably temporarily put a set screw and some washers in there. Sorry about the part number confusion, I was working from the original S-T parts book. Edited October 7, 2014 by peejay4A Quote Link to post Share on other sites
stuart Posted October 7, 2014 Report Share Posted October 7, 2014 TR`s up to mid way through TR4 production had the eccentric stop, after it was changed to non eccentric. I believe only Revingtons offer the eccentric type. It is also worth checking the back of the disc for score marks from the split pin in the end of the trunnion bolt. Stuart. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Tom Fremont Posted October 7, 2014 Report Share Posted October 7, 2014 Poly bushes on the anti-roll bar made a !@#$%! racket on my '250; I replaced the A-arm bushings ( with rubber ) thinking the noise originated there but no joy. When I did finally discover the culprit the only lubricant which silenced them was anti-seize compound ( silver type with stainless steel powder ). I don't race mine ( on the track, that is ), so I don't recommend the poly type. Rubber gets the job done fine and doesn't snap, crackle and pop. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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