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Replacements parts quality issues

Geko

By Geko,
in General TR Technical

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Geko

Geko

Posted
Posted (edited)

For having experienced numerous quality issues with replacement parts coming for the regular suppliers in the UK, I believe that it is about time to address those collectively instead of on an individual or piecemeal basis. Reason is that it is not improving, on the contrary. This is becoming worrisome as I did not experienced such problems with continental suppliers. The main reasons are well known: competition (or the lack thereof) and pricing.

Drawing from my experience I can reasonably say that about 10% (I believe I'm one of those lucky ones) of the parts supplied were inadequate to some extend. Main problems identified are: Poor quality, non fitting parts, non matching parts, damaged parts and poorly finished parts. I'm aware there's sometimes the opportunity to go for the uprated and branded parts not belonging to the suppliers core catalogue but this is not what is at stake here.

I thought about setting up a web-based database listing those issue encompassing the following

 

Supplier name

Vehicle specs

Order #

Part #

Type of fault

Addressed to supplier Y/N

Response and action form Supplier

 

This database would be accessible to the suppliers for the sake of quality improvement. The advantage of this action is that it will highlight some recurrent issues that have not been addressed to the suppliers and some other that been addressed already but for which no action had been taken.

Any other thought/ idea as to how to go about it ?

Edited by Geko
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cvtrian

cvtrian

Posted
Posted

Hi Geko

The NSF/SDF has expanded its brief to cover some parts quality issues, and have already met with another group of ST clubs to share knowledge and experience.

Whilst any initiative will never cover all eventualities, nor replace any individuals own responsibilities in their specific transactions, common problems will be examined and actions deemed necessary will be followed through.

This is not a panacea for parts quality nor a witch hunt against suppliers/manufacturers, after all, we enjoy almost unprecedented levels of parts availability to keep our cars on the road mainly through their efforts, rather it is an attempt to assist everyone achieve a satisfactory outcome in the short and long term.

Parts for our cars have been generally out of production for 30+ years, genuine NOS parts are getting harder to find, prices for such items reflect that, not to mention the increasing value of the cars themselves, so finding and achieving cost effective replacements - coupled with manufacturers liability issues - is not an easy operation.

One of the steps we need to define is what and how problems are reported, but as many may have gathered, there are some time consuming issues being determined by the club at the moment, and this is one of the items, amongst the many, that will be progressed in due time.

Regards

Ian

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Geko

Geko

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One of the steps we need to define is what and how problems are reported, but as many may have gathered, there are some time consuming issues being determined by the club at the moment, and this is one of the items, amongst the many, that will be progressed in due time.

Regards

Ian

 

That's what my suggestion above is intending to address....

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RogerH

RogerH

Posted
Posted

Hi Ian/Geko,

this is certainly a long standing big issue. Most parts are very good but there is a small percentage that is troublesome.

Another problem is that the troublesome ones move around. So it is also a problem with reliability/repeatability.

 

I know Pete Buckles has tried to confront the problem but feels that better/more expensive items simply sit on the shelf in favour of cheaper items.

 

I also appreciate that the first port of call is the customer/supplier interface. That either gets your money back or another 'interesting' component.

Occassionally the supplier bends over backwards to solve the problem - tr4/4A window regulator lock washers come to mind.

 

The NSF/SDF are a thing of mystery. How do you contact them? they do not have a web appearance. Could they not have their own little forum where things are put to their attention and progress monitored!!!

 

Wings are an interesting example. A TR4 repro front wing that doesn't fit cost £600+. A hand made wing in steel or Ali could be as little as £400-500 and fit

Excuses of worn presses are simply an excuse in my mind.

 

Roger

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Kiwifrog

Kiwifrog

Posted
Posted

Geko

 

Its been a problem for at least the last 10 years at least. I have to admit all the parts I have recieved from Moss and TR shop over the last couple of years have been greatly improved in quality, there are one or two other suppliers I don't think I will use again.

 

Moss prices have increased from what they were but the quality is generally much better. I no longer buy on price as it works out more expensive when the parts dont fit and it costs time and money to return them if you are overseas.

 

Cheers

 

Alan

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Geko

Geko

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Hi Roger, Obviously there are issues that are more critical than others. While minor ones can be solved on an individual basis, some would require more bold actions. The one example that comes to mind is the quality of the rubber parts (or parts comprising rubber). I'm always apprehensive while ordering them and wait for them with some trepidations. I came to the conclusion that most of the rubber parts aren't appropriate when exposed to difficult climatic conditions: cracking, shrinking, hardening, decoloring, unbounding, etc...and this has become a safety issue drawing from my last experience with shock absorber bushes.

 

Hi Kiwi, I don't want to enter into some kind of supplier evaluation though my experience over the past 10 years has been different than yours - except maybe for the after sale service (this probably explains that). However the trend I noticed is that the quality of parts from UK suppliers are no longer up to par with continental suppliers which are more expensive by 25 % on average but make no mystery of their business niche: Quality.

Edited by Geko
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brian -r

brian -r

Posted
Posted

Hi Geko excellent idea and much needed perhaps a list of known good alternative parts could be included, for instance I've been told that Land Rover points will fit my 6 and are better quality that the poor offering specifically for TRs available locally.

 

I'm sure that many people would pay more for parts if they could be certain of good quality and fit, this in a way help improve overall quality as the **** would sit on the shelf instead.

 

You have the basis of a good plan

 

Cheers

 

Brian

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Geko

Geko

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Hi Geko excellent idea and much needed perhaps a list of known good alternative parts could be included, for instance I've been told that Land Rover points will fit my 6 and are better quality that the poor offering specifically for TRs available locally.

 

 

Yes - one typical example is the engine mount for TR4/A which can be replaced by LandRover mount

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AlanT

AlanT

Posted
Posted

You are right about rubber parts.

This will always be an issue because the best processes for making these are not available to low-volume manufacturers.

 

Actually this is a common theme on most of the repro items. But there is an upside.

 

Some processes which before were not available in small runs can now be done cheaply in small quantities.

This is any kind of fancy shape that can be done by CAD and then CNC machined.

 

So we can replace castings, which are hard to get in good quality and small runs, with precision parts from good material.

 

Soon we will have "solid printing" of durable parts.

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MikeF

MikeF

Posted
Posted (edited)

We had an extensive back and forth on this some time ago. It was coincident with a similarly informed thread on value of membership. They were both terminated/fizzled away with the promise of action by Register Management accompanied by a caution on what can or can not be said on forums. (I could be mixing a few items here). There was a mention in the next TRaction about the quality issue, but not a bean since.

In my former day job although not a quality professional, I did have a peripheral involvement in quality issues and sat for a time on a BSI/ISO committee and dealt/liaised with many customers on quality issues. In that sort of environment you tend to pick up a bit jargon and stuff.
So how do other people cope with our sort of situation, who can we learn from? Most pertinent I would say is the defence industry. For example life time of a military jet is several decades, they are made in small quantities and the pace of technology ( together with the long procurement times of defence projects) means that many parts - especially electronics - are quickly obsolete. They make lifetime buys of parts to ensure continuity of supply and maintain quality. Reasonably parallel to us.
So I thought about schemes and concluded it would be best if this were handled at Club or multi-club level and started to write a letter to the club management with various ideas and proposals, objective reporting of feedback, dealing with supplier issues like loss of perceived competitive advantage, an approved supplier or scoring system, involving members with expertise etc,.

Then I thought after a while of typing, this is complex and ....what's the point? The club gives every appearance of being entirely occupied by simply running itself and let's say institutionally resistant to change. If it is talking to other clubs, and likely they are similar, then the probability is that nothing will happen for years. So I hit the delete button and went out to wrestle with some recently purchased bits.
Of course I could be guilty of a gross injustice here and the next issue of TRaction could have a whole page of great proposals, or even just a footnote two lines on what's happened to date.

So far as member only action is involved: IN a perfect world we would have some truly dedicated types with software knowledge to set up a database and an online reporting scheme - and then run it. Members would then have to populate the dbase with reports. And when that was done and we had enough response to go back to a supplier what next?

Actually of course an effective Quality Management System would incorporate just such a process, but it is only part of an overall quality system.

A simpler feedback system is probably more attainable; even just collating copies of complaints could be helpful I suppose, but who would do it? Who should do it?

 

Mike

Edited by MikeF
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Peter Cobbold

Peter Cobbold

Posted
Posted

A database that names and shames may well be a legal liability to the host. But personal communications re poor parts, naming the supplier, by email would not I think incur legal comeback. Any lawyers here?

So what about setting up an email list so that issues can be aired. The originator of an issue assumes the job of collating all replies that come from others on the list, and provides a resume as pdf that we can then save. Obviously we should not all email one another !- so replies go to the originator only.

How a compiled list of complaints can be used, needs to be discussed. But the originator of a an email would then be able to chase up suppliers armed with an ( anonymised ) list of fellow complaints.

 

Its just a thought. I dont fancy fitting a safety-critical part made of cheese. We have to do something to protect ourselves.

 

What are the snags?

 

Peter

 

.

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Kiwifrog

Kiwifrog

Posted
Posted

I can not really comment on rubber parts. Apart from door seals etc I tend to go down my local motor factor and rummage through his bins and catalogues for rubber bits and where nessecary modify to fit. For the suspension I have used either NOS rubber or polyurethane parts. I have to say the door seals for my 3A were spot on and they did come from Moss as for life expectancy ???

 

Cheers

 

Alan

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AlanT

AlanT

Posted
Posted

I spent 15 years in a defence industry and had to solve many obsolete supply problems.

 

The first thing would would always do was try very hard to "salvage" stuff we already had.

This saved a lot of re-qualification and other regulatory problems.

 

One of the interesting things in the original post is the suggestion that there are non-UK sources that are better than the ones we all use in the UK.

 

I know of one but now I'll have to hunt out some more.

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MikeF

MikeF

Posted
Posted (edited)

Perhaps as helpful, more helpful, would be a list of equivalent parts of known good quality or ranking. we all (well some) have found better fit parts and recommend them when forum members ask for info. All we would be doing is capturing that intrinsic knowledge in a n organised way. The content would be no different than that found by searching through past posts, [but infinitely easier to find] and on that basis I can't see any legal issues. That could be in a spreadsheet format and available though Google documents or similar. I haven't thought this through in detail so could probably be refined/improved.

 

Mike

Edited by MikeF
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Don H.

Don H.

Posted
Posted (edited)

I tried once to get some info on the working processes and priorities of the SDF, Roger. It remains a mystery to me -- I didn't get a fu in return.

 

Given the current mania for forum control on the Register, it seems more likely we'll get shut down than expanded, especially where a excuse of liability could be used to avoid considering any change.

 

One venue where parts quality is discussed from time to time is the "Triumphs list", one of many simple single-marque e-mail lists run by Mark Bradakis in the US under his team.net domain. It's a shoestring operation, subsisting on user donations to Mark's part-time project.

 

The Triumphs list is one of the most active on Mark's site and is one of the town squares for TR talk here in the US. There are probably several hundred people on the Triumphs list, and probably fifty who are most active. There are a number from the UK and other countries who chime in from time to time, although it is USA-centric.
The format is listserve style (really old skool for those of us who remember those days), but it meets the needs of that community. It's not a forum, although Mark has one of those too, that's rarely used. I subscribe to the "immediate" mode, where each post comes through as a separate email, because I find it easier to separate wheat from chaff than the "digest" mode where a number of threads are combined into a daily mail.
It's a useful list for technical advice, parts sourcing, transportation help, and general TR chat. It does talk about parts quality from time to time, including compliments to suppliers who give good service. The list is a no-drama group that mostly wants to get and give advice. If you're not on it, you might want to take a look.
Here's the home page for registering for a list.
Here's the Triumphs archive page if you wanted to read through the threads by month to get a flavor.
Here's a screenshot of the recent threads -- you'll see a lot of parts discussion.
Keep or toss --
Edited by Don H.
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ianc

ianc

Posted
Posted

At last year's AGM, I made the following statement:

Quality of Parts

We are exceedingly fortunate to have so many suppliers – those who owned a TR in the 1960s and 1970s will know just how fortunate – and we want that to continue. Today, there are few, if any, rogues of the like of the Crawley Crook and the fellow at Lilley. We know that the suppliers get frustrated when re-manufactured parts don’t perform as they should – it hurts their pride, their reputation and their profits.

 

However, we have been aware for quite some while that members of the club have or have had concerns on this subject, so, within the last week, we have co-opted to the SDF’s committee a willing volunteer, Ian Brown (stand up!). Once we have agreed a job specification, Ian will commence work - and that will be very soon. We shall attempt to work in co-operation with suppliers, most of whom do a very good job most of the time, in order to alert them to problems and to help find resolution.

 

With Wayne’s able assistance, we anticipate creating a link on the club’s website and providing a dedicated e-mail address – but we cannot act as nursemaid if a member is incapable of showing some initiative, so we expect anyone who has a concern, first to pursue the matter with the supplier and only notify us if it is perceived as a broader issue or if the supplier’s response is deemed unsatisfactory. And we shall not be acting as a court – kangaroo or any other! So, in TR Action and on the website, keep your eyes peeled for further news on this important subject.

 

Since then, the amount of activity on the Forum involving the Moderators, has increased considerably - and, as you will know, Ian Brown, Wayne and I are Moderators. Many of the things which we wanted to achieve have been pushed to the back burner, because each of us also has a life outside the TR Register.

However, I shall be meeting Ian Brown again on Tuesday and I'll see whether we can, as a minimum, set up a system for reporting concerns about parts to Ian B.

Recently, a number of the Standard Triumph clubs had a meeting about Re-Manufacture of Parts. Now, although the SDF has only ever acted as a facilitator (and will only operate in that role), Ian Brown and I attended in order to share experiences, to learn and to offer some sort of support to the other clubs.

 

Ian Cornish

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Peter Cobbold

Peter Cobbold

Posted
Posted (edited)

Don,

Many thanks, I wasn't aware.

And 20 pages of archives on superchargers ! I could be gone some time.

Peter

 

 

 

Or maybe not, the links are dead.

Edited by Peter Cobbold
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Don H.

Don H.

Posted
Posted

Peter, there's also a TR6-centered group under the team.net domain, the 6pack list. It's not as active as the main Triumphs list, but it's specifically for the six-cylinder crowd.

 

http://www.team.net/mharc/archives/html/6pack/

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Paul Harvey

Paul Harvey

Posted
Posted
Since then, the amount of activity on the Forum involving the Moderators, has increased considerably - and, as you will know, Ian Brown, Wayne and I are Moderators. Many of the things which we wanted to achieve have been pushed to the back burner, because each of us also has a life outside the TR Register.

 

Control freakery gone mad.

Committees, sub-committees, and invited participants in sub-Committees - all reporting straight back to the Chairman.

 

So absolutely nothing changes, and absolutely nothing happens.

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Don H.

Don H.

Posted
Posted

...Or maybe not, the links are dead.

 

 

Peter -- I think I mentioned the shoestring nature of the list (smile).

 

Here was an update on the archives circulated by Mark on 17 February. It's a known problem and 'll let you know when Mark tells us more about the archives...

 

"Spent some time whacking on the Team.Net server this long weekend. The archives, link below
for real time recipients, are sort of working. Nothing new has been added since about a month
ago when the previous server started puking bits into the bucket. I'll work on getting the
newer posts added, but for now at least the basic framework is up and running.
At the moment
and
return different, inconsistent results. Using either one with listinfo/listname works.
Some of the web pages under http://www.team.net are back in place, including several
that refer to the old majordomo list management software. Hope to get those updated
over the next few days.
Thanks for your patience in putting up with the time it is taking me to get it all back
together and working smoothly.
mjb."
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JJC

JJC

Posted
Posted

Look, apologies if this sounds less than positive but I wrote in TRAction well over a year ago about the parts quality issue. It got kicked into touch by the Chairman. So I wrote again, a bit more sharply. This time the Chairman acknowledged that I had a point and said something would happen. It didn't. I tried and tried to get some common sense into the issue but so far as I can see absolutely nothing has happened. If it has I would have expected common politeness would have made someone contact me. But they didn't. I decided last year would be my last in the Register but was persuaded otherwise. The way things are going it may well be this year will be my last. JJC

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Grahamgl

Grahamgl

Posted
Posted

Peter,

To answer your question of early this afternoon,provided all statements made are factual, correct and can be shown so, there is no problem with informing others of the facts.

Turning to the shouted post from Ianc, firstly if the club management were not so paranoid about the smallest hint of criticism there would not be the need for such heavy handed moderation which should give all those involved with it more time to devote to other interests. For my part, I thought that the Forum had been extremely quiet on anything potentially contentious since the last AGM until the end of last month so the moderation needs should have been less during that period.

On a general point, I appreciate that a lot of the things done by the club are done by volunteers, however, in my view, the fact that a person carrying out a role is a volunteer is no excuse for not having time to carry out the full responsibilities of that role or, if under pressure, from seeking approriate assistance. I am reminded of the saying "If you can't stand the heat..............

 

Graham Lewis

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Alec Pringle

Alec Pringle

Posted
Posted

Unfortunately JJC's experience is all too typical.

 

It is many years since the Register made any meaningful input towards the overall parts supply situation, and nothing that I have heard in the past 15 years suggests that there is even the slightest inclination to do so again.

 

The SDF has made some very modest niche contributions to production, its one significant involvement being the assistance towards reproducing wet liner cylinder heads. The SDF does of course hold the beginnings of a parts library, which may prove of value in years to come.

 

There is a failure to recognise that the club is responsible to its membership in the widest sense, and that its ultimate responsibility is to preserve the marque - what comes of being persuaded that it should be nothing more than a social club.

 

As for moderation . . . . . give me strength.

 

If the directors and management adequately fulfilled their responsibility to communicate with members, there would be a minimum of critical comment on the Forum. Criticism is a direct result of wilful incompetence on the part of the management committee.

 

Much of the so-called 'moderation' seen of late is nothing of the sort, it is but censorship pure and simple.

 

There has been a continual tradition throughout the existence of this forum of its membership being effectively and successfully self-policing . . . . a post that is less than balanced or reasonable will soon be countered by another view, and a broad range of viewpoints expressed in short order.

 

That process has been disrupted by an outburst of knee-jerk reaction 'moderation' censoring views which do not concur with the party line.

 

Net result, and absolutely predictable, frustrated contributors upping the ante and the heat of debate spiralling upwards, refuelled by further inappropriate efforts from moderators.

 

The best thing that 'moderators' could do, given the probability of some lively debate about the forthcoming draft Articles, is to take a back seat and resist the temptation to exercise the digital blue pencil at every opportunity. Or even better, at any opportunity.

 

Alternatively, carry on opening mouths only to swap foot, shoot other foot, and carry on helping to bury the club.

 

Cheers

 

Alec

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Ragtag

Ragtag

Posted
Posted

Going back to the original post, it seems to me that rather than 'naming and shaming' poor quality parts, the more positive approach would be to build a directory of the parts (maybe using a digital version of the Stanpart part numbers, if such a thing exists) giving the best quality version of each part available together with its source, or an OE quality alternative from a current manufacturer.

 

Such a project would be too much for one person clearly but if the basic framework could be produced, I'm sure that it would be something that many people on here could contribute to. Wikipedia didn't happen overnight.

 

Such a list could also be used to highlight parts for which there is no satisfactory supply.

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cvtrian

cvtrian

Posted
Posted

 

Control freakery gone mad.

Committees, sub-committees, and invited participants in sub-Committees - all reporting straight back to the Chairman.

 

So absolutely nothing changes, and absolutely nothing happens.

 

Sorry Paul, I don't answer to anyone on the management committee, and neither do I think does Ian Cornish, even in his exalted position.

 

Wayne is an employee of the TR Register so in a slightly different situation.

 

I believe its one of my responsibilities to see that this forum is protected, sometimes from itself, from irresponsible and downright rude, and sometimes malicious, postings, not to mention cleaning up the tide of dross and spam that filters through.

 

However, there are times when I am reminded of an old adage - "biting the hand that feeds you" - comes to mind.

 

I love and totally respect the knowledge and passion shared on this forum, it showcases all that is great about our club, from technical help to humanity, however we also see some of the less desirable traits of human nature exhibited alongside.

 

Paul - you may well have a vision of the club you would like, but currently the club is run via the local group structure, keeping cars alive and on the road, maintaining a public presence and awareness through usage and shows, road trips, charity events etc etc all of which give huge tangible pleasure to thousands of members all enjoying their hobby.

 

The values of our cars have risen due in some part to the popularity of the club, its enthusiasm and its work with suppliers to ensure that almost every part needed to restore and maintain most TRs is more available now than at any time since their manufacture.

 

Modern communication media has added to the club experience, but for my part - it will be a hugely saddening experience if the virtual world ever replaced the above foundations and principles of the club.

 

Of course the management committee may think differently - and by then it will definitely be time to get my coat!

 

Regards

Ian

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