Badfrog Posted February 10, 2014 Report Share Posted February 10, 2014 Hi all, One of the TCF mad tweakers came up with a way to bolt steel wheels on the sawed off studs associated with wire wheels. I join the pix. Can you please give your opinion about engineering soundness and safety? Badfrog Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AlanT Posted February 10, 2014 Report Share Posted February 10, 2014 How many thread turns are visible on the outside of the nut? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Lebro Posted February 10, 2014 Report Share Posted February 10, 2014 I can see the logic, The standard nut has a unthreaded portion at the thin end, by turning off an ammount equal to the unthreaded portion, while retaining the correct seating angle you have not lost any strength, it's then down to whether the short stud comes all the way through the modified nut, if it does, then all will be well. Bob. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AlanT Posted February 10, 2014 Report Share Posted February 10, 2014 Does anyone know what material specification was used for the original nuts. If I were doing this I would make new nuts and select the grade of material. Basically I would not use ordinary mild steel I'd want a grade for "machine parts". The redesign is basically OK but there is a risk of cracks starting at the machined corner. Wants a radius here. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TR 2100 Posted February 10, 2014 Report Share Posted February 10, 2014 (edited) I think I am right in saying that the rounded nuts for the wire wheel splines are high tensile, the standard wheel nuts are not. I don't have the respective torque settings to hand - anyone? In theory, then (and I dont pretend to be an expert or even an engineer!) it woul;d seem to be OK to use the wire wheel rounded nuts (or equivalent HT nuts) to bolt a steel wheel to the shortened studs. This ignores any possible complication through seating angle - I don't know about that aspect. Informed/expert comments welcomed. AlanR Edited February 10, 2014 by TR 2100 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RogerH Posted February 10, 2014 Report Share Posted February 10, 2014 (edited) Hi JF, if the new nut has the same thread grip as the old then that would be one hurdle out of the way. Tapering the nut so that it can reach into the usually inaccessible depth of the wheel stud hole may give more thread grip but!!!. it is possible that the nut now does not have enough circumferential strength, in the machined area, to hold it and may start to spread if the threads above are under too much stress. The use of a HT steel would seriously help here. Otherwise a neat solution. It would have been handy if bolts rather than nuts were employed in the begining and have the hub threaded - as per many modern cars. Roger Edited February 10, 2014 by RogerH Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AlanT Posted February 10, 2014 Report Share Posted February 10, 2014 Like me Roger, you think this is OK from a shape point of view, but you do need the right material. Its easy to buy all sorts of grades of steel IF you are in the USA. Here it won't be so easy but there are a few places. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
stuart Posted February 10, 2014 Report Share Posted February 10, 2014 Personally I wouldnt touch them with a barge pole. Triumph originally changed the size of the nuts on the very early cars from a similar size to those made up ones and went to the larger ones used currently as they were finding that the rims would pull over the nuts. We experienced the same problem when racing Jaguars years ago and changed to a larger nut. Stuart. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest ntc Posted February 10, 2014 Report Share Posted February 10, 2014 I would not even drive it,bad idea JF Quote Link to post Share on other sites
sidescreen Posted February 10, 2014 Report Share Posted February 10, 2014 Bonjour Jean Francois. In 2006 I had the same idea! From that moment on, and 12000 mls further, no problems whatsoever... Raymond Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RogerH Posted February 10, 2014 Report Share Posted February 10, 2014 (edited) Hi Stuart, I had not thought that the wheel could deform over the nut but if that is the case then not good. Roger Edited February 10, 2014 by RogerH Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AlanT Posted February 10, 2014 Report Share Posted February 10, 2014 Well if I had to choose a nut to stop a wheel pulling over it, I might prefer one with a shoulder in favour of one that had a plain taper and no shoulder. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ianc Posted February 10, 2014 Report Share Posted February 10, 2014 The very short nuts designed to hold the adaptor for the wire wheel are clamping a thick and completely solid piece of steel, in which there are chamfers at the 4 places where the nuts fit. Contrast this with the pressed steel wheel, which has a raised portion around each hole. In clamping with the larger nut, this raised portion will deform slightly (this is intentional), but it is important that this nut has a larger number of turns in order that it may lock in position when the correct torque is applied. In addition, as mentioned, these nuts have wider shoulders to prevent 'pull through'. One would probably get away with using the shorter nut (albeit slightly modified as described above) on steel wheels on a road car which isn’t being stressed too much, but if motoring rapidly it could prove disastrous. Ian Cornish Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Badfrog Posted February 10, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 10, 2014 Bonjour Jean Francois. In 2006 I had the same idea! From that moment on, and 12000 mls further, no problems whatsoever... Raymond Hi Raymond, Interesting. Can you elaborate on what you did exactly? Badfrog Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Badfrog Posted February 10, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 10, 2014 Thanks for all the answers. We now have a precise understanding on what and how. I will report to the TCF. Cheers, Badfrog Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RogerH Posted February 10, 2014 Report Share Posted February 10, 2014 Just out of interest what is the diameter of the stud? What is the diameter of the hole in the steel wheel? Roger Quote Link to post Share on other sites
stuart Posted February 10, 2014 Report Share Posted February 10, 2014 (edited) Stud is 7/16" hole is 17/32" TR 4 wheel Stuart. Edited February 10, 2014 by stuart Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest ntc Posted February 10, 2014 Report Share Posted February 10, 2014 You only need to look at how thick the adapter plate is and uses ht nuts 60 lb torque the rim is thin on your life be it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RogerH Posted February 10, 2014 Report Share Posted February 10, 2014 (edited) With a 7/16" diameter stud and a 17/32" hole in the wheel one could tap the hub 1/2"UNF and insert a modern wheel bolt. If the hub flange looks iffy then a nut could be welded in place. Something like this could be used easily with solid or wire wheels and be very safe. However it would then be very special and one may have trouble getting a wheel with 1/2" stud holes. Roger Edited February 10, 2014 by RogerH Quote Link to post Share on other sites
sidescreen Posted February 11, 2014 Report Share Posted February 11, 2014 (edited) JF, In answer to your question herewith my drawing including the result... Raymond Edited February 11, 2014 by sidescreen Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RogerH Posted February 11, 2014 Report Share Posted February 11, 2014 Hi Raymond, Basically you have reduced the height by apprx 3mm which = apprx 2 threads. The shape remains the same so the load on the wheel concave location remains the same. Most industrial components have a significant safety margin - aircraft are the meanest at 1.5 times the UTS. I think cranes have a safety margin of 10:1 (PF would know the correct value) Your nut has been reduced by apprx 17%. So if it had a safety margin of 2 then with the 17% removed it would still be in the high 1+ x UTS When you do the nut up can you get more than 8 full turns on it. If so then I would be happy. Roger Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Lebro Posted February 11, 2014 Report Share Posted February 11, 2014 (edited) Ah, but if you look at the photo of original nut, the first couple of mm's have no thread anyway - presumably to aid fitting the nut to the stud. So that reduces the difference in no of threads between original , & modified nut. My worry would be if the stud still does not penetrate all the way through the nut, which the above photo suggests it doesn't Bob. Edited February 11, 2014 by Lebro Quote Link to post Share on other sites
sidescreen Posted February 11, 2014 Report Share Posted February 11, 2014 Roger, I just checked the number of turns of the nut which is 8.5 turns. Still cold in the garage... Raymond Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RogerH Posted February 11, 2014 Report Share Posted February 11, 2014 Hi Raymond, that is the usual way to ensure they are wound in enough - 8 is the miniumum. Roger (tin hat on) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
pfenlon Posted February 11, 2014 Report Share Posted February 11, 2014 Thats odd unless the wheel makes a difference, my "slave" TR6 wheels will only allow 5 1/2 turns, and the studs look standard? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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