markymar93 Posted January 20, 2014 Report Share Posted January 20, 2014 Thanks for the message trevor. I will do just that. I'm just curious about mine. Especially as it has been registered with a 2200 engine as well even on the old log book. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
roy53 Posted January 20, 2014 Report Share Posted January 20, 2014 i bet it will have FIA papers You must remember that proven x works cars have sold for over £100,000 so this may be a bargain ROY Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Alec Pringle Posted January 21, 2014 Report Share Posted January 21, 2014 Difficult to imagine how this or any other project car could be granted FIA papers before completion . . . . . Cheers Alec Quote Link to post Share on other sites
markhoble Posted January 21, 2014 Report Share Posted January 21, 2014 Difficult to imagine how this or any other project car could be granted FIA papers before completion . . . . . Cheers Alec I suppose it depends who is selling the car ! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Alec Pringle Posted January 21, 2014 Report Share Posted January 21, 2014 You could be right there, I'm afraid. As I've discovered in recent years, in the course of endeavouring to assist owners of a number relatively interesting classic/historic cars with ambitions of gaining FIA paperwork, the factual records, let alone the personal recollections, of those involved 'back in the day' seem to count for little or nought against the 'opinion' of a current 'official'. Sad state of affairs, but perhaps one reason contributing to the fact of fakes running round on track and genuine cars lingering in garages. Whether it's a question of arrogance or old-fashioned spondoolahs talking is another matter. Cheers Alec Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Trigbush Posted January 21, 2014 Report Share Posted January 21, 2014 (edited) Looking at Frédéric Reydellet's Tome 6, I can see that in the 1955 RAC Rally, OVC272, as a private entry in the hands of Cherry Osborne and Mrs S. Hurley, came 122nd overall, 29th in class 9, with 10878.70 points. There's no other mention of OVC272 in RAC Rallies between 1953-1961 inclusive, and Reydellet's lists of Standard & Triumph entries, both Works and privateers, are comprehensive. Ian Cornish I hardly call that competition history. Frankly, the Underwood typewriter I inherited from my grandfather has a better record. Alec's right. Whatever of this car that remains and is original/ex-works is probably the badge - and even that is likely questionable. Edited January 21, 2014 by Trigbush Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Tom Boyd Posted January 21, 2014 Report Share Posted January 21, 2014 I really hope your not saying Jim will put papers on a car that does not deserve them!! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Alec Pringle Posted January 21, 2014 Report Share Posted January 21, 2014 Tom, as I said earlier " Difficult to imagine how this or any other project car could be granted FIA papers before completion . . . . ." So the question of Jim putting papers on his own car doesn't arise - given that he is selling a part restored project. Or at least that is my impression. In any case, a FIA HTP relates to car specification, as opposed to authenticity or provenance. I think the cynicism generally expressed relates to the wider European scene. As far as I'm concerned, I don't regard any of the historic paperwork issued nowadays by the various bodies around Europe, whether that's clubs ASNs or whatever, as being worth the paper it's written on. It wasn't ever thus, but times change. Just my personal opinion of course. Cheers Alec Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Alec Pringle Posted January 22, 2014 Report Share Posted January 22, 2014 A couple of contributors have got rather upset with me by email, as they feel that there is some unreasonable criticism of the authenticity and/or provenance of this car implied by the remarks about FIA papers. Sorry chaps, but an erroneous understanding on your part of what the FIA HTP (Historic Technical Passport) actually means. See the extract below from the MSA guidance notes that accompany the application form fro HTP. " The HTP is essentially a sporting document and its purpose is to allow a car to take part in International competitions. An HTP says nothing about the authenticity, provenance, origins, etc, of a car. It is concerned only that the car’s specification is that of the particular model it purports to be, the whole purpose of the HTP is to try to ensure that cars accord with the authentic specification and can therefore compete with one another fairly. Whether the car is wholly original, partly original, assembled wholly or partly out of period components or a copy or replica built recently is not relevant to the issuing of an HTP. The prime criteria to be granted an HTP is that the car represents a provable specification and type that competed internationally in period. " Hopefully that is clear enough - the HTP relates to the detailed technical specification alone, which is why I was suggesting that it is impossible for the matter of HTP application to be considered, let alone FIA papers granted, until a car, any car, is actually completed and ready for competition. That so-called historic cars today can achieve power outputs, speeds and lap times undreamt of in period is, of course, entirely beside the point . . . . Cheers Alec Quote Link to post Share on other sites
markhoble Posted January 22, 2014 Report Share Posted January 22, 2014 Alec You are, of course, correct. Which makes the current specification of the car on sale very interesting. Mark Quote Link to post Share on other sites
JJC Posted January 22, 2014 Report Share Posted January 22, 2014 Sorry to wander off topic but would a TR2 be allowed to compete with discs on the grounds that they were available as a modification? JJC Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Tom Boyd Posted January 22, 2014 Report Share Posted January 22, 2014 No, disc brakes were available on later TR3's onwards. I know of a few 2's that have papers and race and they have to use drums all round Tom Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Alec Pringle Posted January 22, 2014 Report Share Posted January 22, 2014 A TR2 would not be granted FIA papers if fitted with disc brakes. Disc brakes were not an available option in period, by which we mean the date of production run. The fact that competing TR2s were converted later, once TR3 disc assemblies became available, is irrelevant - not in period. However, FIA papers are required for the more elevated sorts of competition . . . . there are plenty of more mundane events, the rules of which are less stringent in their interpretation of historic. So yes you can fit discs to a TR2 and enjoy competition, but your options are more limited. Cheers Alec Quote Link to post Share on other sites
JJC Posted January 23, 2014 Report Share Posted January 23, 2014 A TR2 would not be granted FIA papers if fitted with disc brakes. Disc brakes were not an available option in period, by which we mean the date of production run. The fact that competing TR2s were converted later, once TR3 disc assemblies became available, is irrelevant - not in period. However, FIA papers are required for the more elevated sorts of competition . . . . there are plenty of more mundane events, the rules of which are less stringent in their interpretation of historic. So yes you can fit discs to a TR2 and enjoy competition, but your options are more limited. Cheers Alec Well just goes to show how often I'm wrong (family chorus - no surprise there). I saw the blue TR2 at Le Mans in 2012 and was surprised by the disc brakes. So was it a 3 or does Le Mans have a variant of the FIA papers? Or did I get something else wrong? JJC Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Tom Boyd Posted January 23, 2014 Report Share Posted January 23, 2014 Which blue TR? Was it the Salvador blue SRW 992?? If so that is a TR3 and had discs as standard Quote Link to post Share on other sites
markhoble Posted January 23, 2014 Report Share Posted January 23, 2014 Well just goes to show how often I'm wrong (family chorus - no surprise there). I saw the blue TR2 at Le Mans in 2012 and was surprised by the disc brakes. So was it a 3 or does Le Mans have a variant of the FIA papers? Or did I get something else wrong? JJC Be careful. The French TR2 is illegal in lots of ways and I understand that it has been told to run drums in this year's LMC. Never mind the 2 inch carbs, alternator, large engine and adjustable front suspension ! One of the joys of racing abroad (not just in France) is that folk are often less stringent than we are in the UK about not only what they will accept as OK for FIA papers (I bet that TR2's papers show it with discs) but also what modifications to turn a blind eye to once the papers have been obtained. The reason I was so pumped up about going back to LMC in 2012 was to beat that French car - such obvious cheating gets my goat; they could at least have been smart about hiding the modifications. Anyway, job done so no need to go back this year. Mark Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Tom Boyd Posted January 23, 2014 Report Share Posted January 23, 2014 Ahhhhhhhhh, yes. THAT TR2............ Quote Link to post Share on other sites
JJC Posted January 23, 2014 Report Share Posted January 23, 2014 Don't know what Salvador blue looks like. From memory there were three in the pit. PDU222 at extreme left. The blue one was on the right. I think French registered. JJC Quote Link to post Share on other sites
markhoble Posted January 23, 2014 Report Share Posted January 23, 2014 At LMC 2012 there were four TRs - PDU 222, Neil Fender's car, the hooky green car (the one I describe above) and the (less hooky) blue car. Mark Quote Link to post Share on other sites
stuart Posted January 23, 2014 Report Share Posted January 23, 2014 Which blue TR? Was it the Salvador blue SRW 992?? If so that is a TR3 and had discs as standard It shouldnt have as originally its a 56 pre TS13046.but nobody seems to worry about that either. Stuart. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
McMuttley Posted January 24, 2014 Report Share Posted January 24, 2014 At IWE 2013, Ian Cornish was spotted chatting to someone whilst standing near to my ubiquitous TR3a (in common as muck SigRed with non-original wire wheels and tacky spot/fog lamps). Does that 'near miss' add anything to its value ? Comme on dit en France, son tout originale, honnête Quote Link to post Share on other sites
colin briscoe Posted January 24, 2014 Report Share Posted January 24, 2014 I agree, let it stay there. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mike ellis Posted January 24, 2014 Report Share Posted January 24, 2014 It was one of the three cars upgraded to 1957 spec by the factory and sent out to race at Sebring so may have acquired disc brakes then. So what counts as standard in this case. Mike Quote Link to post Share on other sites
stuart Posted January 24, 2014 Report Share Posted January 24, 2014 Or even originality. Stuart. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Don H. Posted January 24, 2014 Report Share Posted January 24, 2014 (edited) It was one of the three cars upgraded to 1957 spec by the factory and sent out to race at Sebring so may have acquired disc brakes then. So what counts as standard in this case. Mike Hmm... Good question, Mike. Hard to tell from these Sebring 1957 images (courtesy Robert Johns), but it looks like they have discs, yes? Edited January 25, 2014 by Don H. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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