billg Posted January 12, 2014 Report Share Posted January 12, 2014 191033757375 Very expensive TR2 on eBay Bill G@NB Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Andrew Smith Posted January 12, 2014 Report Share Posted January 12, 2014 http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/191033757375?ru=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.co.uk%2Fsch%2Fi.html%3F_sacat%3D0%26_from%3DR40%26_nkw%3D191033757375%26_rdc%3D1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Alec Pringle Posted January 12, 2014 Report Share Posted January 12, 2014 (edited) A part restored car, with a typical amount of bitsa, Queen Anne's Axe, however you wish to put it, character . . . . like most TRs - and as such worth maybe £15K ? £65K is an awful lot of premium for the competition history . . . . . Cheers Alec Edited January 12, 2014 by Alec Pringle Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Don H. Posted January 12, 2014 Report Share Posted January 12, 2014 Pricey, and is it clear the registration number is included? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
wjr85 Posted January 12, 2014 Report Share Posted January 12, 2014 Seems to be the trend at the moment that any car with even a morsel of factory or competition connection or a mention in Bill Piggott's books are commanding a premium of 20-50K plus. Asking prices for such cars seem to be going up and up as the next one comes on to the market. How many times in the last few years have we seen these cars being advertised by their long term owners and sold only to be readvertised a few months later for two to three times as much the only difference being a long winded write up on its motoring history/past. Must be a lot of money being made at the moment by a few. It is nice to see the marque being preserved but I feel things have been getting out of hand for a while now. Does buying one off these "Important" cars get their new owners into an exclusive club or something or is it all fuelled by potential investment returns. Thoughts please John Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Chris59 Posted January 12, 2014 Report Share Posted January 12, 2014 Is it me or there is some confusing use of differents cars pictures, showing different reg numbers ? 272 is not 276, or I'm wrong ?.... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
wjr85 Posted January 12, 2014 Report Share Posted January 12, 2014 I believe the seller of 272 is just linking it to 276 to justify the price and add to it's story. John Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted January 12, 2014 Report Share Posted January 12, 2014 (edited) As I have said before: you better get used to these asking prices. Is it sold for that amount is always the big question. Many of the forumites here, are long standing, long term TR owners, some from the 60s or 70s. For many, a sidescreen TR is a remininscent of the their youth when you could drive and own a TR on a shoestring. In many cases these long-term owners do all the jobs on the car themselves. Thus making it not too expensive to drive a TR. Others have to turn to a workshop with workshop prices. Fair enough! But you have to bear in mind that owners' asking prices reflect the money they've put into it. Labour costs et all. And many first time buyers are aware that buying a wreck and send it off to a restorer (check book restoration - nothing wrong with that, imho), will drain their wallet. So, a little extra for a car with 'provenance' can be interesting.... Talking about these restored TRs as 'my grandfather's hammer' (you know that story, I'm sure) when it comes to pointing out the car's heritage doesn't help the marque or what's left of it and the Register. Let's asume that this seller tells an honest story. He's only referring to this car as 'the back up car'. He's not trying to pretend that this is Maus' (Gatsonides - people called Maurice are often refered to as 'Maus' overhere in Holland) car, he trying to highlight the story behind this car. He's honest about the original and the replaced parts, he's honest about the work done and he's referring to great names when it comes to the jobs that are done. Now, why not a positive comment on the man's effort? He's not doing some hokey-pokey job and it's a well thought plan. What more can one ask? In the end of the day, it's a buyer's market and if one buyer thinks it's worth the money, it is what it is. And if it's sold to a dealer who will advertise it within a few weeks for a lot more? So what! it's an open market with room for a lot of sellers and buyers! Menno Edited January 12, 2014 by Menno van Rij 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Alec Pringle Posted January 12, 2014 Report Share Posted January 12, 2014 (edited) " Talking about these restored TRs as 'my grandfather's hammer' (you know that story, I'm sure) when it comes to pointing out the car's heritage doesn't help the marque or what's left of it and the Register. " Distinguishing the 98% of bitsas from the 2% of authentic original cars is exactly what the Register should be about . . . . that and moderating the often fanciful flights of embroidery that accompany some TRs with pretensions towards a particular historic status. There's nothing at all wrong with a restored bitsa or replica, but money doesn't make it a pukka original machine. The buyer of a car with three quarters of its asking price by way of 'history' premium is not a marque enthusiast per se, he or she is someone looking for a social passport on wheels. That this year's passport happens to be a TR is perhaps neither here nor there. As for the juxtaposition of 272 with 276 in the picture selection . . . . 'gilding the lily' might be one description. Cheers Alec Edited January 12, 2014 by Alec Pringle Quote Link to post Share on other sites
wjr85 Posted January 12, 2014 Report Share Posted January 12, 2014 The only point I was trying to make is the price, if a similar car with the same description of work carried out were to be advertised without the associated number plate/connections I'm sure 50K less would still seem expensive. Yes we have had to get used to these prices, what hope then for the youth and the future of the register. How many young people these days can afford these ever increasing asking/transaction prices with their student loans to repay, mortgage deposit to raise etc etc. Unless they buy a 7 there is no chance for them, most would buy a MGB, Midget,Spitfire etc and join those clubs. It seems the only way to earlier TR ownership for the future members of the register is either inherited/past down wealth or a long wait until they can afford one. They say the Uk has an ageing population the same must be happening within the register. I know we have the yoof group but with ever increasing prices, internal politics and the younger generation having less and less disposable income the future is not that bright. John Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Kiwifrog Posted January 13, 2014 Report Share Posted January 13, 2014 The problem with a lot of High price cars is the "Knock on effect" spare parts go up in price because they are now for "valuable Vintage Sportscars" rather than fun old cars, prospective owners are put off because they don't feel secure driving round in 20-30 thousand pounds with no anti theft devices at all, younger members even if they are interested can not get involved in the hobby because of the astronomical amounts involved. Personally I think our hobby has 15 or 20 years left in it at the most before our cars become unwanted lumps of scrap iron. You just need to look at the popular vintage scene in the states if its a 20's or 30's ford or chev or other type of popular car the only value in the car is for conversion to a hot rod. All the enthusiasts who restored the cars in the 50's 60's and 70's are now dying out or are to old and infirm to drive the cars so there are more sellers than buyers, hopefully it will get to a point where these cars are cheap enough to interest younger people but these days the old car hobby is not high on the list of a lot of peoples free time activity. Have fun with your car today, and remember the value in it is not the pounds or dollars but the smile it forces on you when driving it and the great people you meet that is its real value wether it is a 1500 pound clunker or a 50 000 pound show stopper Alan Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ianc Posted January 13, 2014 Report Share Posted January 13, 2014 Looking at Frédéric Reydellet's Tome 6, I can see that in the 1955 RAC Rally, OVC272, as a private entry in the hands of Cherry Osborne and Mrs S. Hurley, came 122nd overall, 29th in class 9, with 10878.70 points. There's no other mention of OVC272 in RAC Rallies between 1953-1961 inclusive, and Reydellet's lists of Standard & Triumph entries, both Works and privateers, are comprehensive. Ian Cornish Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Alec Pringle Posted January 13, 2014 Report Share Posted January 13, 2014 A TR pal of mine put a lot of effort into trying to research this car back in the mid-70s - with ideas of buying and restoring it. Its competition history seemed from his researches of the mid-70s to have been fairly limited, more of a director's personal car that got taken on regular jollies than a proper competition department offering, and by the accounts of some of those around in the mid-1950s the stories about the car had become a tad burnished with the passing years. Nothing new there then, in a general sense. Hence my pal passed on the car. This wasn't much more than 20 years after the car's glory days, and a further 20 years flew by before the present owner acquired the car in 1996. It's now 60 years since the car was built, and there won't be too many folks around who recall it as new. The present owner's account is here - http://www.historique.co.uk/1954%20TR2%20OVC%20272/TR2-OVC%20272.htm - and to his credit it is refreshingly straightforward about what is refurbished original, compared to refurbished replacement period items or new items. A good clear and honourable description of the car's condition the way I read it. The fine detail of the car's early history and its subsequent career during the 1950s might be a little more conjectural, and I can't see how it justifies the kind of premium suggested without cast iron definitive evidence of its early years. Just my opinion. Cheers Alec Quote Link to post Share on other sites
pfenlon Posted January 13, 2014 Report Share Posted January 13, 2014 Bet someone buys it though, but sadly my Powder blue Right Hand door which as stated, could have been near a works car, remains unsold. Still awaiting the stories of how ALL works, and perhaps it was a works car??? to grace the pages of Traction. If I had one I would be beating down the editors door to get its pic and story in the press, wouldn't you. Ian is excused I know his story, I used to buy Exchange and Mart too! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
markymar93 Posted January 13, 2014 Report Share Posted January 13, 2014 I am in my early thirties and I have to say it is fustrating when I see how much certain cars have jumped in recent years. I am now in a position to have a few classics and the costs have just gone mad. About 2 years ago, you could buy a really good Volvo P1800 for around £10000. I am now seeing prices reaching £20000. Same with tr's. I have seen a few being advertised in magazines for £40000 in recent months and even a couple of TR3A's around the £30000 mark. Even a rust bucket for a full refub is now getting expensive. Im pleased I got my TR2 and 3 when I did lol. The only good thing about the increase in values is that it is more likely that the rust buckets, which normally would be scrapped are being restored as there is financial reason to. Therefore the history is not vanishing. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
markymar93 Posted January 13, 2014 Report Share Posted January 13, 2014 I forgot to mention. I think certainly race history makes a car more interesting. It also opens up certain events that would normally be off limits, such as Goodwood, Silverstone Classic etc. I have been looking for a car with race history for some time (without being stupid in cost) and yet to find one. Personally I like the idea of having the history and seeing the slight differences between cars. It also makes the car feel a little unique. I would pay a premium for a car with race history, but think I will never be in the market for one sadly due to the costs. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ianc Posted January 13, 2014 Report Share Posted January 13, 2014 Having had a further look at Reydellet's invaluable Tome 6, I see that Cherry Osborne, with Lola Grounds, competed as a privateer in the 1956 RAC in a Standard Ten, PRW893, coming 123rd, 10th in GT 1300. Cherry navigated for Lola in the Works' TR2 PKV697 in the 1955 Tulip, coming 141st. As far as I can see (from the comprehensive list prepared from Graham's original schedule in his "The Works Triumphs", with subsequent additions and amendments from Bill Piggott, Bob Rowland and Mike Ellis), that was the only time that Lola competed in a Works' TR. As far as ALL the Works' cars (Standards & Triumphs) go, wait for Graham's next book, which should be published around June/July. Ian Cornish Quote Link to post Share on other sites
markymar93 Posted January 13, 2014 Report Share Posted January 13, 2014 I am curious to see if my TR2 does have any race history as there was very little that came with it. Where is it best to look? thanks mark Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Don H. Posted January 13, 2014 Report Share Posted January 13, 2014 I am in my early thirties and I have to say it is fustrating when I see how much certain cars have jumped in recent years... Thus has it always been. There are affordable cars out there now in the range of 20± years old that will be the high priced classics in years to come. The trick is to know which ones before the crowd figures it out. I'm still dreaming about that "real" 1980s Audi quattro... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
markymar93 Posted January 13, 2014 Report Share Posted January 13, 2014 (edited) I have to agree. I have looked at the 2 door Sierra Cosworth and the Audi several times lol. However, at the moment I am focusing on my P1800. Once that is done and work has started on the TR3 and 2 I will look for another project. I will probably look in the other direction though at early 50's or late 40's. I fancy a Riley. I am hoping that within a few years I have 4-5 really nice classics including my current 3. I am a little car obsessed lol Edited January 13, 2014 by markymar93 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
wjr85 Posted January 13, 2014 Report Share Posted January 13, 2014 In TR Action No 135 Dec96/Jan97 Classified Advertisements Section the first car listed in cars for sale reads as follows: TR2 -1954. TS 875, Reg. OVC272. Early long door car with racing hist, detailed in Bill Piggott's recent book. All buff, green & V5 reg docs from new plus correspondence from orig owner. Part restored, with most parts(new or used) to compl car. Body needs finishing and painting. Eng & most ancillaries. G/box, susp,c/work, hubs &brakes completed, new period cross plies on rims. OIRO £6000. Tel....... Interestingly the third car for sale is TR3 - Famous ex-Works rally car SHP 520 - reluctant sale as I cannot afford to restore. Offers based on £15000 to Bill Piggott. John Quote Link to post Share on other sites
markhoble Posted January 19, 2014 Report Share Posted January 19, 2014 The real point about the price of this racing TR2 is that to put it on the track and make it competitive would make it a six figure car. Then it would look expensive ! Still, it is a nice thing and I hope we see it on track at some point soon. Mark Quote Link to post Share on other sites
wjr85 Posted January 19, 2014 Report Share Posted January 19, 2014 Doubt it will ever see the track, just an investment opportunity for someone at this price. Well beyond the reach of the majority of TR enthusiasts. Like it or not this seems to be the direction things are going at the moment. John Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Trevor S Posted January 20, 2014 Report Share Posted January 20, 2014 I am curious to see if my TR2 does have any race history as there was very little that came with it. Where is it best to look? thanks mark Hi Mark, If you can borrow a copy of Bill Piggott's book, "Triumph by name, Triumph by nature" 1995 ISBN 1-85443-107-2 Chapter 10 lists details of "Significant side screen TRs". Many TR2 were raced in local club races of the time, but finding any evidence now of this can be very difficult, especially as a DVLA History search will only take you back to the mid 70s now when it was computerised. Local council offices however often retain vehicle registration details, so if it retains it's original UK registration you could try and get details of the owner at the time and work from there. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
markhoble Posted January 20, 2014 Report Share Posted January 20, 2014 Doubt it will ever see the track, just an investment opportunity for someone at this price. Well beyond the reach of the majority of TR enthusiasts. Like it or not this seems to be the direction things are going at the moment. John John It will see the track. You are quite right that it is beyond the majority of TR enthusiasts; but it is not beyond someone who has a race car to suit every event and who will pay more for something that has period race history. The advertised car is pitched at these folk. Is it an investment opportunity ? I don't think so. Is it a good use of £80k ? Yes, because it will give someone truly memorable experiences in great events. Mark Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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