Steel Wheel Query

[keithm]

Hello

 

Two queries:

 

1. Should I be using tubes with my steel wheels - Kwic Fit reckoned that the wheels don't have the right band/ridge on the inside to keep the tyre (New Continental 165s) in place if subject to a bump?

 

2. My 4a is New White - should the wheels be white as well or silver as rubbing down prior to painting there is white under rough silver.

 

Thanks in anticipation

 

Keith

[LGFromage]

Kwik Fit may be right as rims for wire wheels have an added ridge since they became tubeless. The solution for my early type wire wheels (with Continental 165s) was to fit inner tubes.

 

Tim

[ianc]

Very odd, as there must be hundreds of TR owners who, like me, run on the standard TR steel wheels fitted with tubeless tyres. As it happens, I have TR6 5.5J rims, but many will be using 4.5J and 5J steel wheels.

Ian Cornish

[John Morrison]

TR 4/TR4A are originally fitted with 4j standard well base rims and need tubes.

 

Tr 6 originally fitted with wide ledge well base and are suitable tubeless.

 

 

Congratulations on your Kwik Fit Fitter knowing his stuff, so many tyre fitters have never seen a well base rim,- that said your problem is not getting the correct tubes, Michelin are available, and are the best, NO Question,- but ensuring that the tyres you buy do not have internal stries that will chafe the tube.

 

So IF your steel wheels are original, then Yes you should fit tubes.

 

John.

[Alec Pringle]

This is a bit of complex topic, one which I researched 20-odd years ago as tech ed of TR Action - I found a variety of opinions, as expressed by tyre manufacturers' technical personnel. There was not exactly a consensus view . . . . . caveat emptor, and be cautious !

 

The actual wheel bead seat, flange and hump design varies considerably between manufacturers, and is largely influenced by the design tyre specification - nowadays all laid down in interminable pages of internationally agreed specifications.

 

My enquiries at the time related to traditional conventional radial tyres of 80 and 70 profile only - and specifically not to more modern tyre designs of lower profile. I think I'm right in saying that modern low profiles might be better suited to more modern rim designs.

 

The hump, that retains the tyre bead on its seat under stress, was originally very modest indeed - talking now of wheels of the latter 1950s through to the late 1960s. Subsequently the design evolved.

 

Bear in mind here that tubeless tyres in a production sense originated with Goodrich, as a Packard fitment, back in 1954-55, and crossed the Atlantic in the later 1950s. The 1958 wheels of our Standard Pennant and Peerless GT make no provision for tubeless tyres, whereas those of our 1958 Humber Super Snipe in contrast are suitable for tubeless tyres.

 

Long ago we had a Courier, 1962 prototype, and the Courier featured tubeless tyres as standard - we still have the wheels (wider than Herald) to go on the Pennant one day.

 

At least some 4" TR wheels were tubeless spec, I sold a set of such last year, but I don't know at what point the wheel spec evolved. These may even have been later 'spares' production rather than original fitment, I simply don't know.

 

However, I have only seen 4.5", 5" and 5.5" TR rims of tubeless type, although I suspect at least some 4'5" rims might have been tubed only fitment.

 

Younger tyre fitters can be confused by early tubeless type wheels - the bead seat and hump profile is less pronounced than those of more modern wheels. You need to find an older tyre man who is more knowledgeable about older cars and their wheels.

 

Personally I wouldn't touch the major quickfit chains with someone else's bargepole, I've met too many personnel therein who know sodall about notalot, and care less.

 

Nor would I fit low profile modern tyres to classic wheels which were not designed for them, but that's another story - your life, end it as you wish.

 

Cheers

 

Alec

[AlanT]

I think you should probably go to a classic wheel specialist like MWS.

 

This is not straightfoward and is important.

[BrianC]

Also worth checking with the tyre manufacturer as to whether the tyre is safe to use with or without a tube, regardless of whether you intend fitting it to a steel/alloy wheel or wire wheel. The bead-retaining aspect is clearly a minefield, especially given the age of the cars and likelihood of original wheels having been replaced by later TR wheels or from other sources. A well-researched technical article in TRaction would be welcome, especially with noddy instructions on how to identify which size and type of wheel one has. Not a trivial task, but well worthwhile as it could ultimately save lives (and 'preserve the marque' ).

 

[Afterthought: It would make sense if someone could move or link this to the new 'TR Technical Chat' sub-forum]

[John Morrison]

No ambiguity on ORIGINAL 2, 3 3A or 4 wheels, they are all tubed type, end.

 

All wellbase with equal sloped ledges and not a hump in site.

 

John

[Alec Pringle]

Hi John,

 

I wouldn't disagree with that, in terms of original production and fitment in period..

 

However, I do wonder if there was in fact any later spares production and/or TR4A 4" wheels that did make provision for tubeless ?

 

Certainly tubeless 4" rims exist, and I can't imagine them being made by anyone other than Standard Triumph.

 

Cheers

 

Alec

[graeme]

My understanding is that if the wheel is marked with a J, no matter the width, then it can be used with a tubeless tyre.

 

The J was introduced when tubeless tyres became available and signifies a safety bead on the wheel suitable for tubeless tyres.

 

Cheers

 

Graeme

[RAHTR4]

Hi Keith,

 

In response to your query about the original colour of your steel wheels, the Factory changed the colour of wheels from Silver Aluminium to Spa White in March 1962.

 

This was applied across the complete range of cars in production at that time.

 

As you have found traces of white paint on your wheels, it would appear that they carried on using the same colour into TR4A production.

 

Adding to the tube or tubeless debate :

 

I have original TR5 steel wheels - each of these is stamped on the inner face of the well 4.1/2 J x 15 H.

 

According to the Standards Manual of the European Tyre and Rim Technical Organisation the J refers to a specific shape of the rim flange.

 

It then states that the "H" means that the outer edge of the wheel - the bead seat - has a hump formed in it, the "hump" is actually a bump put on the bead seat (for the bead) to prevent the tyre from sliding off the rim while the vehicle is moving.

 

The inner bead seat is noted as being "normal" which I assume to mean it is flat and no bump, probably because this inner bead seat is much wider and thus the tyre bead cannot slide that far.

 

Also the two parts of the TR5 steel wheels - the hub and rim are spot welded together.

 

Thus based upon the above I am assuming it is safe to fit tubeless tyres to these wheels.

 

Any comments?

 

Next on a set of TR6 steel wheels - fifteen hole type with spot welded construction - these are stamped 5.1/2 J x 15 H, thus same specifications as above and presumably OK for fitment of tubeless tyres.

 

Finally I have noted that the standard TR4 steel wheels, riveted construction, that I have they are all stamped into the base of the well 4 J x 15 L, however at this time I cannot find out what the "L" refers to / means.

 

Any thoughts?

 

Regards, Richard

[John Morrison]

Hi Richard,

 

you are correct in stating that the 'J' refers to the rim flange height and profile, and really became the standard car rim flange probobly in the fifties.

 

As regards the tubeless wheel debate, up to TR 4 on Original wheels, then its tubed type.

 

As you correctly state, the wheel needs a method of preventing the OUTER tyre bead progressing into the wheel well under cornering,

 

There are several ways wheel manufacturers tackled this, a hump on the outer wheel area was one, simply a much wider flange, as on the original TR 6 wheel, is

 

another, a narrower outer flange with a reverse taper, so that the tyre needed to 'Climb' to reach the well was another, etc

 

The Original TR 2 to 4 well base wheels have non of these, and need a tube.

 

The Tr 5, was I think I am correct in stating was fitted with tubelesss tyres by Triumph, and as such should be fine on tubeless, as is the TR

6, I do not know about

 

the TR4A.

 

John.

Edited October 12, 2013 by john