Nigel 628 Posted July 8, 2013 Report Share Posted July 8, 2013 This title by Roger Williams from Veloce Publishing is currently out of print; as I am building a road rally TR7 to complement my Stage rallying TR4 I would like to have a copy. Veloce are bringing out a digital e-version soon which I can get for my tablet, but being old-fashioned I would still prefer to have a paper copy in my hand! Anybody got a clean copy they would be willing to sell? Nigel Allcock Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Wayne S Posted July 9, 2013 Report Share Posted July 9, 2013 The TR Register shop still has stock I believe: http://www.tr-registershop.co.uk/how-to-improve-triumph-tr7tr7-v8--tr8-78-p.asp Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Nigel 628 Posted July 9, 2013 Author Report Share Posted July 9, 2013 Thanks, Wayne, hadn't thought of trying that. I'm just jibbing at the price - the e-book should be much cheaper when it comes out but if I can get a second-hand copy that would help. I hear that much of the book is about V8 conversions which I don't want to do, so only some of the info would be relevant to my project. I'm still reeling at paying 30 quid for a paperback for the equivalent TR4 version, even with the photo of Mal's lovely car on the cover! If I have no joy I'll try the Register shop and bite the bullet. Nigel Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Alec Pringle Posted July 9, 2013 Report Share Posted July 9, 2013 Jon Wolfe's little book also has some useful stuff applicable to TR7s and V8s http://www.wolfitt.com/ Cheers Alec Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jemgee Posted July 9, 2013 Report Share Posted July 9, 2013 (edited) I bought it from Amazon a couple of years ago for a lot less than cover or shop price. Just imagine my surprise at price on Amazon now. Better return than on a Surrey top!! http://www.amazon.co.uk/How-Improve-Triumph-TR7-V8-Speedpro/dp/1845840453/ref=sr_1_7?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1373364454&sr=1-7&keywords=how+to+restore+tr7 or even sillier http://www.amazon.co.uk/Enthusiasts-Restoration-Manual-Restore-Triumph/dp/1904788246/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1373364454&sr=1-1&keywords=how+to+restore+tr7 Edited July 9, 2013 by jemgee Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Nigel 628 Posted July 9, 2013 Author Report Share Posted July 9, 2013 Yes, tried Amazon, saw those! One guy was asking over £700 recently. Lots of other books the same, try The Works Triumphs as well! I don't get it, who is ever going to pay those prices? Nigel Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Nigel 628 Posted July 9, 2013 Author Report Share Posted July 9, 2013 Good link, Alec, thanks for that. My internet search didn't pick that one up, probably because I'd been Googling 'TR7rally car'! Once again probably 50% is all about V8's: fair do's it clearly states it doesn't cover the four cylinder engines, but all the other info will be of use. Probably more competition-focussed detailed info than the other book and from a competitor's own experience; that's the real nitty gritty! And at less than one third the cost....I've just ordered my copy. Nigel Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Alec Pringle Posted July 9, 2013 Report Share Posted July 9, 2013 Hi Nigel, I ought to have the Williams' book somewhere, if you'd like to borrow it and scan the relevant parts then send a PM with your address details and I'll post it up to you. Cheers Alec Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Nigel 628 Posted July 9, 2013 Author Report Share Posted July 9, 2013 Thanks, Alec, a kind offer. I'd like to get my own copy at a reasonable price if I can, but it's a good suggestion, if I have no luck I might just take you up on that! I have a June '76 Speke car in remarkably good condition (although not rust-free!) which I am aiming at the historic road rally regulation changes currently in consultation by the MSA for next year. There will be a new Category 4 for 1981 to 1985 cars, and it's fairly certain that as a result Cat 3 cars like the TR7 will now be allowed to compete for overall positions, not just for class awards. I feel that for regularity rallies round tight and twisty country lanes a lightweight four cylinder TR7 will prove more agile than a thundering great V8, especially as on these events there is more emphasis on navigational skills than outright power. Ideally I would like to go for a 16v Sprint engine but Triumph never put them into official production in the TR7 and it isn't homologated for road rallies so I will probably have to use a lightly-tuned 8v unit but we will have to see how the rules pan out. Together with a well-sorted chassis and brakes, and some subtle lightening, it shouldn't be uncompetitive however much people like to knock them. As an added feature I aim to do it as cheaply as possible, probably as a reaction to the small fortune I've lavished on the TR4.....although if it goes well and I can use the 16v engine I'll probably get carried away as usual! You know I like to be different! I've used the TR4 before on occasion but it's becoming unsuitable for these events as it's too much of a stage car, and is possibly going to fall foul of other proposed new road rally regulations which may well see it outlawed altogether. Nigel Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Nigel 628 Posted July 18, 2013 Author Report Share Posted July 18, 2013 Update. No offers of a second hand copy of the TR7 book so I ordered one from the TRR shop and yes, they still have stock, so yesterday my very own brand new copy arrived. Thanks Wayne, I hadn't thought of that source. It was full retail plus a hefty postage charge, but still a darn sight cheaper than the greedy loonies asking £300 for used copies on Amazon and at least it goes towards the Register's benefit! Yes, it's rather V8-biassed but I disagree with the complainer in the Amazon review, there's still lots of useful info covering the rest of the car. On the very first flick through I noticed the reference to SD1 Vitesse brake calipers where it pointed out that some late Mk1 Range Rovers had the same brakes - and there's just such a vehicle lying scrapped in my yard at the moment, the 3.9 Efi engine is already in my mate's TR7 DHC. That's saved the cost of the book already! Books are knowledge, and knowledge is power..... There's enough in it to justify my own copy but thanks again to Alec for the offer of the loan, and particularly for the link to Jon Wolfe's website; his book on racing TR7 V8's has dropped through my letterbox this morning. This is totally V8 info which is the stated title, but again there is lots about preparing the rest of the car which is of relevance whatever engine you are using. The only slight disappointment is neither book has any real info about bodyshell strengthening apart from rear bulkhead 4-link boxes and jacking tubes. Which is extreme Group 4 stuff I can't use anyway. I'm gleaning info from private build websites, such as front chassis leg cross bracing and boxing the join between chassis legs and front bulkhead. Seam welding of suspension mounting points is a given anyway. I know it's only a road rally project but some events I've done have been rougher than forestry stages! Just as importantly, the stiffer the shell the better the handling - that's why it was never going to be a DHC in the first place. I happen to be one of those rare types who prefers the looks of the FHC, probably something to do with my lifelong passion for rallying. I still want to keep this project low cost so the car will be largely standard in many ways. I know 2 litre 8v TR7's get rubbished but they still have better suspension and power to weight ratio than an MGB, say, and they work well enough on historic road rallies. I will be putting more effort into increasing handling and reliability than power! I still don't understand why there are lots of places asking wild prices for books on Amazon. Do they think that once a book goes out of stock/print it automatically becomes worth a fortune - even the old 'Improving TR2/4' book is being offered for far more than the new revised and updated version which is crazy for a technical book. Do people actually pay these prices? It's just like certain cars which were rubbish so sold badly and soon got the chop, and are now 'worth' lots just because they didn't make many - the word 'rare' is one I steer clear of in classic car ads! Well, I have three old engineering books from my college days - they were out of print then (1971!!!) and I had to buy second-hand. I still have them in A1 condition and noticed they were advertised on Amazon at over £100 each, so I stuck mine on for between £12 and £25 which is what I thought they were really worth, and sat back ready to get my hands snatched off. Three years later and I haven't had a single enquiry about any of them....... My final book in the research stage is Philip Young's 'How to Build a Successful Low-Cost Rally Car', another Veloce Books title which I bought the moment it was released in 2009 and can recommend heartily! http://www.veloce.co.uk/shop/products/productDetail.php?prod_id=V4208&prod_group=Build%20Your%20Own%20Car& OMG - it's out of stock - quick, anyone want to buy my copy for £500?!!!!!!!!!! Good job we have the TRR Forum members to help. Nigel Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Paul Heritage2 Posted July 19, 2013 Report Share Posted July 19, 2013 There's plenty of people around with all the knowledge you need, and cars for you to look at / copy etc. *whispers* the TR Drivers Club have a few people with modified FHC cars, although most V8's but a few Sprint cars. I'd suggest using the main TR7 forum: http://www.forum.triumphtr7.com or http://club.triumph.org.uk/cgi-bin/forum10/Blah.pl/ My own website has some info starting at: http://www.tr7.co.uk/tr7v8-rally-car-build/18--tr-technique-no-3-body-strengthening-.html I also own a TR7 FHC road rally car, although V8 but may be able to help. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Paul Heritage2 Posted July 20, 2013 Report Share Posted July 20, 2013 One of the reasons that people go V8 is that apart from the engine, you're going to need everything else pretty much the same. The Rover V8 is a relatively light engine at about 200kg compared to about 120kg for the TR7 engine. Then look at the standard 3.9 V8 pushing 200bhp against 105bhp of the standard TR7 or maybe 130bhp of a 16V engine you can see why most go for V8 for power per tonne. The Rover V8 is so much more reliable and easier to add more power - and sounds better! It also has much more torque. p.s. if you have a June '76 FHC you may want to consider not using as a conversion as early cars are getting very sought after in original guise. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Nigel 628 Posted July 20, 2013 Author Report Share Posted July 20, 2013 Thanks, Paul, that's a great help. I'd heard about the Dave Bulman CCC rally build articles but not been successful in locating them on an internet search so far. I don't know why your website missed out in my Googling as it is rather an obvious TR7 one, but I shall read it with great interest along with the details of your own car. I'm familiar with the usual areas of concern with monocoque bodyshells but each car usually has it's own peculiar weak spots which are worth knowing about. This project is aimed at MSA historic daylight regularity road rallies which are held under the Blue Book historic regulations; these limit the modification of vehicles for 1974-81 cars to the items allowed in Groups One and Three of the relevant FIA Homologation Forms (3071 for the TR7). We are not even allowed multi-colour paint jobs! Presumably as BL were doing very well with the Dolomite Sprints in Group One, they only homologated the TR7's in Three and Four; in fact most of the choice bits, including both the 16v head and the 3.5 V8 engine, were for Group Four use only so would be out for these rallies. I may yet find myself stuck with the original 2-litre 8v engine! Of course it was always a bit dodgy that BL managed to homologate the Sprint-engined TR7's as the model was never officially put into production, and the V8's were homologated as TR7 V8's rather than TR8's for UK marketing reasons. There may be some leeway in proving common usage in period as has been allowed with other cars, we shall see. It would be interesting to see what happens if someone turned up at scrutineering in an original pre-production TR7 Sprint...... But as I said previously, this means that even totally-standard cars can be competitive in these restricted and navigation-based rallies, Hence I aim simply to sympathetically stiffen up the shell without major (non-reversible!) mods, upgrade the suspension, improve the brakes where allowed within the confines of 13" wheels, and pay close attention to building in as much reliability as I can. This will be more a careful restore/upgrade build than a full-on rally car like my TR4, and I can still use the TR7 as a normal road car as well. A '4 for historic stages, a '7 for historic regularity road rallies, and my '67 2000 Mk1 saloon for the scenic runs when I feel like chillin'! I have considered the originality factor, my DHC was registered on 11th June 1976, chassis number ACG19**, and seems to have excellent original sills, floor, inner wings and turrets with only a few patches welded in here and there. I don't really think it's ever going to be worth a great deal of money in the immediate future but the nature of this build doesn't entail wholesale butchery of the bodyshell or irreversible modifications. I believe cars were made to be used, otherwise I wouldn't be risking my TR4 on the stages! Unless someone knows different and offers me silly money for it.... I could be wrong on any or all of these observations so will not be hurt if anyone wishes to correct me! I appreciate your comments about V8's vs four cylinder engines, Paul; during 20 years of offroad racing I became quite familiar with them and still have my Bowler 88" V8 Land Rover racer tucked away in the corner of the workshop. But even that was eventually replaced by an Ex-Dakar Bowler Wildcat with a BMW 3-litre turbo diesel for which I have chipped ECU's for between 235 and 275 BHP, and about 350/600 ft.lb. of torque, depending on the event - perhaps I'd be better off just selling the Triumphs and digging them out again instead! Nigel Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Nigel 628 Posted July 20, 2013 Author Report Share Posted July 20, 2013 (edited) Paul: I just checked the Blue Book - MSA regs for all road rallies: R18.2 maximum of four cylinders; that kills the V8 option for road rallying even for modern events, for you and me both! Also: R 18.1.2 Paintwork in only one colour, 18.1.3 no wheelarch extensions, 18.2.2 maximum two carb chokes, and an additional proposed new rule for next year, you must retain the original inlet manifold. (A bid to further restrict the all-conquering Escorts; twin camshafts were banned already but the single cam 16v Sprint head might just slip the net...). There are exemption waivers available, but only for historic Category 1 and 2 cars - my 6-cylinder T2000 uses this to be eligible, not to mention my twin-Webered TR4, but this may change too. Hence the TR7. Actually, these rules have been in force for some years but not having done road rallies since the free-for-all, anything goes glory days of the seventies I wasn't au fait with current regs for non-historic road rallies. So you see why I'm talking about 4-cylinder engines in relatively standard cars, I don't have any choice! The MSA's stated position is "road rally cars should not be heavily modified competition cars". It's all to do with their fear of the public viewing it all as racing on the public roads. Like it or loathe it, they make the rules. Nigel Edited July 20, 2013 by Nigel 628 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dursley Posted July 23, 2013 Report Share Posted July 23, 2013 I have the Dave Bulman CCC articles in pdf form at: https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0Bz1MK9YiTPtjQzRLVnJ1OVU0eXc&usp=sharing Could anyone tell me how much stuff there is in John Wolf's book about suspension/brakes/handling etc. Is it worth buying the book leaving out the V8 stuff? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Nigel 628 Posted July 25, 2013 Author Report Share Posted July 25, 2013 Great, thanks for that. I read all the articles this week; it helps a lot to have the photos too! This was a very informative series although some of the info and contacts are a bit dated now - well, it was written 30 years ago. The majority of the techniques are still quite valid though despite TR7 competitive development having been low key for some years now, but ironically those of us competing in TR7's as classic race and historic rally cars nowadays can't use modern technology anyway - the rules require our cars to be the same spec as they were 30 years ago! Jon Wolfe's A4 ring bound book, 'A Guide to Racing Your Triumph TR7V8', has 50% of it's content purely concerned with V8 engines and it is all about serious race preparation as the title clearly says. Much of the other info applies equally to four cylinder TR7's - even the LT77 gearbox and SD1-derived rear axle are the same on the 2-litre, of course. Generally, the principles of subjects like suspension geometry are the same - but a fast road car would use polybushes instead of rose joints, for example. This is serious competitive info from someone who knows his stuff. The beauty of these sources to fellow competitors is that we are getting the advice straight from the horse's mouth rather than second-hand, so a lot of the thinking and planning is included, along with tales of which ideas didn't work, and why! The contents list on his website looks impressive but some topics tend to warrant little more than a short paragraph or two, but there is still lots of useful info in there. There is a degree of assumption that the reader already knows basic principles of engineering and car modifying, but this is hardcore racing info and isn't intended to be a Haynes manual. There are photos included throughout. I found it an interesting read, but for anyone interested in simply improving their road car rather than competing, the Roger Williams 'Improve your TR7' book would be more comprehensive. One of the most useful internet sources I've come across for general and detailed road-oriented performance info is a Club Triumph blog by a Dutch contributor who has built a Sprint-engined fhc as well as having restored a dhc to a high standard. Lots of photos! It's probably well-known but I'm a TR7 newbie so have only just found it - http://tr7beans.blogspot.co.uk/ I found it a very good read - he speaks excellent colloquial English, in fact his spelling, grammar and punctuation are far ahead of many people on Facebook and Ebay to whom English is - allegedly - supposed to be their first language ....sorry, mustn't get started on that one.....! Nigel Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Paul Heritage2 Posted July 25, 2013 Report Share Posted July 25, 2013 Hi Nigel, I haven't read the rule book for some time and my own TR7V8 was built for historic rallying and other events like sprints/hill climbs etc. There does seem to be a lot of TR7V8's being built for racing but maybe for certain events. Beans is a well know contributor in the TR7 forums: http://www.forum.triumphtr7.com/default.asp & http://club.triumph.org.uk/cgi-bin/forum10/Blah.pl/ Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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