Keith Winston Posted March 23, 2013 Report Share Posted March 23, 2013 (edited) I have been advised to replace the original fuel pump on my cp tr6 because at some point it will explode causing untold damage.... This would be my last big expense, HA, before returning XHN 776G to the tarmac, after a long absense. What are you thoughts on this, which replacement pump would you go for? Cheers keith. Edited March 23, 2013 by donutstop Quote Link to post Share on other sites
badshead Posted March 23, 2013 Report Share Posted March 23, 2013 Keith Exploding pump sounds a bit dramatic, they usually expire in more mundance ways e.g. leaks or too worn to maintain 100+ psi. Basically you've got 2 choices, stick with the original and get a rebuilt Lucas pump/recon your own or convert to a more modern Bosch/Sytec pump. You'll won't get a consensus here on which is best so it's down to personal choice and passion for originality or not. Bill Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Denis Posted March 23, 2013 Report Share Posted March 23, 2013 (edited) The Lucas Pi Pump was the very same pump they used on F1 cars during the Cosworth DFV years!...If it was good enough for F1...it's good enough for your TR ! There are pressure problems however related to using the Bosche Pump on the Lucus Pi System! Edited March 23, 2013 by Denis Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RobinTR6 Posted March 23, 2013 Report Share Posted March 23, 2013 Yep just been there, had both solutions on a number of cars. Decided to avoid the £300+ for a Bosch conversion and had my old Lucas reconditioned by Raven Smith (on this forum). Runs sweet and no issues thus far. Somewhat cheaper than the Bosch replacement (about 1/4 cost) and I've bought 2 spare Lucas pumps both working as spares (think they cost about £15 on Flebay). Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Keith Winston Posted March 23, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 23, 2013 Thanks for your views, I have aimed for originality through out the rebuild, however I dont mind a bit of modern technology in certain areas. I was also hoping to hear from some one who had fitted a bosch replacement. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
john.r.davies Posted March 23, 2013 Report Share Posted March 23, 2013 I have a Bosch, Keith, but it's in a Vitesse converted to Pi, and the tank is in an odd place (the spare wheel well). Advised by malcolm of Prestige that the Bosch is great pusher but not a good puller, and I've seen people mount them under the boot floor in a TR. Not for me, too vulnerable, so I have a lifter pump as well, a Facet. This solves another problem, not of the Bosch, but of the system, that it is very vulnerable to surge in the tank, so that if the level is low, the pump will get air, and the engine dies. My lifter fills a swirl pot, that is slightly above the pump, so providing a small head of pressure to that and gauranteeing no surge. John Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Andrew Smith Posted March 23, 2013 Report Share Posted March 23, 2013 (edited) Keith, Bosch all day long over the Lucas for reliability! I've had three TR6s, the first two had Lucas pumps and were plagued with overheating in the summer, even after fitting the 'cooling coil' that wraps round the pump which was as useless a chocolate teapot! Both cars got the Bosch 996 pump fitted sharpish and I never looked back. VUX, my current TR6, had the Prestige Injection Bosch conversion some years back by the PO and I have recently fitted a diaphragm PRV to cure resonance, photos below: Edit: rubber hose replaced with a PTFE lined steel braided one as it permeated fuel vapour into the boot! Cheers Andrew Edited March 23, 2013 by Andrew Smith Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Keith Winston Posted March 23, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 23, 2013 Very interesting, thank you. I can see the low level of fuel being a problem especialy the way you corner ha! Worth considering. Cheers. I wonder if this problem is common, would be a pain I can imagine. I was warned by some one in the auto electrics mystery world? experianced in trs, that it be advisable to replace the original pump with a bosch. Maybe theres no need to fix it if its not broke, but considering its geting on a bit, although only covering 32k would be worth an overhaul or exchange unit. Thanks al, whens all this snow going back!! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Keith Winston Posted March 23, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 23, 2013 Andrew fantastic photos, like your touch, the door rubber anti vibration system! Seriously super job, if the rest of your car is as good as your boot area wow. Malcolm supplied me with a metering unit that sorted my starting problem out, thats all it was after 3o years, oh and a new battery oh and........ p.s. how do I post pictures your size? mine are always to big to upload untill there thumbnails, when your bored could you message me ta Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Agile Posted March 23, 2013 Report Share Posted March 23, 2013 My TR6PI ('74) was equipped with a Bosch '996' pump when I bought it last year. This Bosch 996 is often mentioned as suitable for the TR6PI, yet this one was not delivering enough 'flow' anymore. The '996' is not available anymore from Bosch afaik. However, there is a Bosch '984' with similar specs. If you check the Bosch pump specs, you will see that none is designed to nominally deliver the high pressure as required by the TR6PI system at its nominal flow. Luckily, 'flow' and 'pressure' are related: the 984 (as the 996) can deliver the required pressure, yet with a lower flow. So, if you go for a Bosch conversion, my question would be: which Bosch pump? Check the specifications. In any case, the Bosch pump in a TR6PI has to work hard in the TR6PI (so does the wiper motor based Lucas as word has it). The 984 is the one I'm using per today. It is mounted below the fuel tank for mentioned reasons. It is working well. I'm using it with a normal (new) PRV. There are also 'Bosch optimized' PRVs, I'm not sure what the difference is. Essential is delivering the correct pressure to the metering unit *and* still have enough flow via the PRV back into the fuel tank to cool the pump. On cooling: the hard working Bosch pump is more power hungry than the Lucas, so go for new wiring to the pump and a relay directly from the battery to control it. Downside: cooling becomes even more important. This also extends the life of your likely 40 years old ignition switch. These are serious currents. Yet... you do need the flow to cool the pump. Bottom line Lucas or Bosch? If my car would have been equipped with a Lucas, I would have reconditioned and kept it and accept is limited reliability. Yet, I do value the expertise from the real experts at the various well known TR part suppliers, they cannot be wrong. And, also in my case, the Bosch solution just works perfectly (if you use the right Bosch pump). Keep us posted! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Keith Winston Posted March 23, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 23, 2013 Very good to hear, I think I had already made my mind up in a way after listnening to professionals. But wanted to hear from members, New to the forum, but finding it usefull. thanks Quote Link to post Share on other sites
John Harvey Posted March 23, 2013 Report Share Posted March 23, 2013 If your Lucas pump is producing the right psi and doing its job leave it alone never had a problem with mine despite all the scare stories. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
CONCRETE24 Posted March 23, 2013 Report Share Posted March 23, 2013 Hi Keith, I have had a Bosch (from Prestige) for nearly 10 years. Never missed a beat and used on many long distance runs and the odd rally. I'm sure a Lucas in good condition probably fine too! Regards, Michael. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
amclpreston Posted March 23, 2013 Report Share Posted March 23, 2013 I have a Bosch, Keith, but it's in a Vitesse converted to Pi, and the tank is in an odd place (the spare wheel well). Advised by malcolm of Prestige that the Bosch is great pusher but not a good puller, and I've seen people mount them under the boot floor in a TR. Not for me, too vulnerable, so I have a lifter pump as well, a Facet. This solves another problem, not of the Bosch, but of the system, that it is very vulnerable to surge in the tank, so that if the level is low, the pump will get air, and the engine dies. My lifter fills a swirl pot, that is slightly above the pump, so providing a small head of pressure to that and gauranteeing no surge. John Long ago, in my TR5, the fuel pump was located underbonnet. Fitted in the same position as the brake master cylinder except on the passenger side. Never, ever had the 'surge' effect. The fuel starvation in hot weather only ever occurred once or at most twice a summer when stuck, or crawling along, in heavy traffic on really hot day. Cure was to sit by the grass verge, as everyone else sweated. Not the worst way to spend 20 minutes or so. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
meteringtuning Posted March 23, 2013 Report Share Posted March 23, 2013 In the 1970s I modified my Lucas pump by removing the phosphor bronze bearings, machining the bearing housing to take ball bearing races, I also drilled several holes in the pump motor cover to create air cooling fanned by the motor rotor acting as a fan. Maybe a bit OTT but it helped reduce the time sat at the side of the road while the pump cooled down. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
meteringtuning Posted March 23, 2013 Report Share Posted March 23, 2013 If you wish to check your fuel line pressure have a look at these 2 items currently on Ebay Universal Liquid Filled Gauge : 130859945909 Image not available Photos not available for this variati Oil Pressure Gauge T Piece 3/8 BSF to 1/8NPT Landrover Engines item no: 271138239884 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Keith Winston Posted March 23, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 23, 2013 (edited) What to do?? 50/50 I am hoping to go on some long runs, dont know if that makes a differance? Edited March 23, 2013 by donutstop Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Alec Pringle Posted March 23, 2013 Report Share Posted March 23, 2013 If a Lucas pump "explodes" then it will be the first one I've ever heard of . . . . . total bloody codswallop. There's nothing wrong with the Lucas pump itself, which is of similar design to those utilised in the engine-driven pumps of competition Lucas systems, the inhibiting factor is the adapted windscreen wiper electric motor that powers the pump. Most of the deficiencies of the motor can be addressed by turning it on its side utilising a saloon PI cradle, and giving it a larger direct electrical feed and a better earth than OE. Of course TR specialists will sing the praises of Bosch installations, which are exceptionally profitable conversions. The fact remains that there isn't a Bosch road pump in production which is able to fuel a PI system comfortably, the poor thing is rattling its knackers off and can be expected to have a limited life as a result - Bosch do make competition pumps which are up to the job, but at a four-figure cost. The sensible answer would be to send the existing Lucas pump to Neil Ferguson, who will do a proper job for remarkably modest money - as an old fashioned Lucas engineer he doesn't have an axe to grind, or a motivation to flog you hundreds of pounds worth of ruckwarts durch technik. He does actually understand the PI system too, which is a damn sight more than can be said for most TR specialists and fuel injection specialists. Just in case anyone gets the wrong idea, I do like Bosch pumps and have 3 cars running on them, but cars designed for Bosch injection - which the TR6 wasn't. Cheers Alec Quote Link to post Share on other sites
stuart Posted March 23, 2013 Report Share Posted March 23, 2013 Lucas pump rebuilt by Neil Ferguson (k ravensmith on here) everytime. Stuart. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest ntc Posted March 23, 2013 Report Share Posted March 23, 2013 Lucas pump rebuilt by Neil Ferguson (k ravensmith on here) everytime. Stuart. +1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Keith Winston Posted March 24, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 24, 2013 Thank you all very much for your response, the forum can be a very informative, lively fun place. regards keith. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Keith Winston Posted March 24, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 24, 2013 Hi, probably me, cant find k ravensmith, can you give me a contact number cheers. Lucas pump rebuilt by Neil Ferguson (k ravensmith on here) everytime. Stuart. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RobinTR6 Posted March 24, 2013 Report Share Posted March 24, 2013 yep its a bit confusing, he's known on here as Neil Raven Smith, thats his daughters ebay ID which he used when he didnt have one. His name however is Neil Ferguson ebay link here http://www.ebay.co.u...=item20d07042d1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
john.r.davies Posted March 24, 2013 Report Share Posted March 24, 2013 Long ago, in my TR5, the fuel pump was located underbonnet. Fitted in the same position as the brake master cylinder except on the passenger side. Never, ever had the 'surge' effect. The fuel starvation in hot weather only ever occurred once or at most twice a summer when stuck, or crawling along, in heavy traffic on really hot day. Cure was to sit by the grass verge, as everyone else sweated. Not the worst way to spend 20 minutes or so. Interesting, amclp! Just shows the 'suck' proficiency of the Lucas pump, I suppose. And the swings and roundabouts of modification, although why anyone wanted the pump under the bonnet, beats me. According to Lucas' training manual http://www.lucasinjection.com/Lucas%20Mk2%20manual%20page%203%20CONTENTS.htm Triumph included an external swirl pot in early cars, and an internal one in the tank later. Maybe experiene showed it wasn't needed, perhaps because the top of the filter was vented to the tank? It was omitted later in TR5s and 2.5 estates. The last beats me too, as my previous Pi Vitesse was an estate, with the flat tank right across the back, behind the axle, obviously very prone to surge. To deal with surge, the main tank had a 500ml (?) catch cylinder hanging off the bottom, from which the fuel supply was taken. That was inadequate in the face of my cornering, on track or road, hence the swirl pot and lifter pump. John Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RogerH Posted March 24, 2013 Report Share Posted March 24, 2013 Well, I've been reading this thread with interest. As one of the early posters stated 'the opinion will be divided' and it is. Anyway all was well until I got to John Harveys post and spotted his signature pic - I've now got to lie down and recover Roger Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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