Engine Rebuild Cost?

[Matt]

Hi all,

 

Last weekend after a short run a knocking could be heard when my TR6 was on tick over from the bottom of the engine, which I suspect to be a big end on its way. Coupled with the fact the head gasket is suspect I thought I’d enquire on rebuild costs before the summer returns (If it actually turns up this year!).

 

Being a newbie to Triumph TR6’s, limited space and time, I decided it’s not a job I can tackle so I asked a for a quote from a reputable Triumph specialist.

 

I asked:

 

“How much would a standard engine rebuild cost (not looking for fast road/race just a good smooth TR engine) with a balanced bottom end, rebore, new pistons and a unleaded head conversion cost? Also do you do this in-house or outsource? I know it will depend on a few things. Also when, if ‘the price is right’ could you start?”

 

The response:

“A complete engine is around £7000 plus VAT fully balanced with new clutch. We build the engines ourselves but the machining is outsourced.

The price above is engine only. We recon another 75 hours ( at £52.50 plus VAT) to remove and refit build up accessories etc.

The when is dependent on how we tackle it. Do we build an engine here then swap it or would you prefer yours redone? If we do another, then the swap would likely be two months hence if we started now. If we do your engine we take it now and do the strip immediately so that we can get the machining under way. Then we store the car until it’s all back with us to build up. It is worth pointing out that £2750 plus VAT of the cost is our labour as the engine is dummy built several times before final assembly to ensure a perfectly smooth unit.

We recon we can get an extra 30 hp out of the engine just by careful building. That is not to say a 150 CP engine miraculously becomes 180hp. They were never 150 in the first place!”

 

 

The questions I’m asking are:

 

1. As the price is way out of my budget, is this the norm for a TR engine?
2. 75 hours seems high to remove and refit an engine, am I being over optimistic?
3. The above doesn’t include any ancillary components except the clutch, what would you recommend being reconditioned/replaced while the engine is out?

 

Your thoughts and comments are appreciated.

 

Thanks in advance,

 

Matt

 

 

 

 

[Tom Boyd]

PM'd

 

Tom

[Peter Cobbold]

Matt,

If the engine isn't burning oil, the compressions are OK and the oil pressure is good then replacing big end and main bearings involves nothing more than dropping the sump and winding them in, doing the thrust washers at same time. No need to take engine out. You can do that if the journals show damage or are out of spec.

Head gasket is easy job too. ( why do you suspect it? )

Ask local group for suggestions of classic car friendly garage near you.

I am doubtful that an unleaded conversion is needed for these engines, unless dirven really hard for long periods, but you can check for ev seat recession when the head is off and decide then.

Peter

[Matt]

Hi Peter,

 

Thanks for the response.

 

Re the head gasket, there is a small amount of ‘mayonnaise’ on the oil filler cap, clean it away it comes back.

 

I will ask the local group for suggestions also.

 

Thanks,

 

Matt

[Guest ntc]

For a std engine rebuild with balance they are takeing the p?? at 7k

[RogerH]

Hi Matt,

I've seen prices like that before. I don't think the garage is trying to rob you but it is still hefty wedge.

 

Have you any engineering skills and tools.

As stated above removing the head is not rocket science but you do need to know what you are doing and you will need tools

The bottom end is easier but you still need knowledge. Measuring the crank at the big end journal is straight forward but have you been there before.

 

If the above is all gibberish have words with your group and see if there are any amateur engine builders out there. - you don't have to be professional to be good.

Also I'm sure overhauled engines come up on e-bay for about C £1500

 

Roger

[Guest ntc]

And that would be £1500 wasted

[Menno van Rij]

7k gbp = 8.4k euros. For that amount I'll come over to the UK, collect the engine, have it rebuild in Holland by our #1 engine builder and return it to your address. And I will still make a hefty profit. Adding the 75 x 52.50 = nearly 4k gbp / 4.8k euros for the accessoires, the profit would even be bigger...

 

I am sure you can find a cheaper engine builder with a proven track record for less than 7 + 4 = 11k.

 

Menno

[Peter Cobbold]

Hi Peter,

 

Thanks for the response.

 

Re the head gasket, there is a small amount of ‘mayonnaise’ on the oil filler cap, clean it away it comes back.

 

I will ask the local group for suggestions also.

 

Thanks,

 

Matt

=============================================

Matt

The mayonnaise is probably nothing more than water condensed from 'blow-by', especially if you dont give the engine a good long run to drive that water from combustion out . Blown head gaskets are rare on std engines driven reasonably and is likely to show as the water jacket pressurising. So if the rad overflow isn't overtopping dont worry about the head gasket.

Peter

[Tony Millward]

No-once else has said it the way it is so I will....TOO BLOODY EXPENSIVE!. Definitely find another mechanic with a proven track record..he's having a laugh.

 

Tony

[AndrewP]

Hope its cheaper as thats my next job on the list!

[simonjrwinter]

We are in the process of rebuilding my son-in-laws TR6 engine. To balance the full rotating assembly is £180 so not a fortune (but well worth doing)

You could buy yourself a second TR6 with a fair body and a decent engine for 7K!

75 hours to remove and refit the engine? are they removing it through the glovebox?

Matt, just a thought, why not buy a s\hand engine and rebuild it at your leisure? plenty of good books and advice out there and VERY satisfying.

Simon

Edited January 13, 2013 by simonjrwinter

[Matt]

Hi all,

 

Thanks for the feedback so far....

 

Menno - you forgot the VAT is £13,125 without any hidden extras

 

Tony - it's way too rich for my non-blue blood!

 

Simon & Roger - the problem at the moment is space, single garage and little room. We are looking to move and top of the list is a double garage, I guess it may depend on what comes first, the house sale or the TR engine.

 

Peter - it could be, I am trying to find someone local that I can get to look at the engine to assess the knocking ect

 

I will ask the local TR group for suggestions and recommendations.

 

Matt

[marki]

Hi Matt.

 

Try Darcy at Banwell garage, used him before good bloke knows his stuff ( used to race saloons ) does work for a few 6s.

 

He wont rip you off hes done Tonys from Somerset Triumphs on hes 4a nice job.

 

Drop my name in hes ok.

 

Good luck Mark...

[badshead]

Matt

 

It's been a while (7 years) since I had mine rebuilt by professionals (classic Jag specialists), but cost for full rebuild inc all machining, parts & VAT was about £3k split roughly 25% parts and 75% labour charges. That's probably about £4k at current values?

 

Bill

[Kiwifrog]

Matt

 

I second Simons idea. I have just rebuilt a 4 pot and I found it very enjoyable. I am sure I took much longer than a professional and I do have a local mechanic who gave me advice and help in exchange for cups of tea (A fellow TR register member in France) as well as help and advice from a lot of forum members.

 

For me 7K would be unthinkable and posibly the engine would be built to a specification I wouild not need.

 

Drop the sump and check the big ends, its easy to see if they are worn, I am sure there is a local member near you who could offer advice, its what the register is about

 

Cheers

 

Alan

[StuartG]

That strikes me as a crazy amount of money.

 

I had engine work done last year which involved removing the head to reseat the valves on No.6 cylinder (which of course also involved changing the head gasket) and all up cost including the dreaded 20% VAT was £700 by a very good local TR specialist.

 

At the time I was given an estimate of £3000 to £4000 if an engine recondition was required, including labour.

Thankfully that was not the case and it has run like a dream over the 2000 miles since ....

[Red 6]

Matt, I am staggered at the price quoted they are clearly out to rape your bank account. I note there is already a queue of people offering to rebuild the engine for you so i wont join it but i will give you an opinion.

 

Firstly, if it is big ends, you can change them yourself with the engine in situ, it is a beginners job but will take all day and you will get cold and oily.

 

If you want to rebuild the engine yourself, it really is one of the most simple jobs that can be tackled on a 6 cylinder tr engine, but it will take a couple of weeks because you will need to take components to engineering shops.

 

The last engine I re built was a full race 6 cylinder engine, with such exotica fitted as a steel crank, carillio conrods, omega forged pistond, roller rockers and so on. The rebuild cost me about £1600 in machining and the supply of bearings, and gasgates etc.

 

The brown book will tell you all you need to know but in brief remove engine (6 hours the first time you do it).

Remove and strip cylinder head

Remove pistons

Remove Oil pump

Remove crank/flwheel

Remove cam.

 

Take everything to an engineering workshop and ask if the bores are ok for deglazing rather than re boring, does the crank need a re grind or just a polish, is the cam worn?

 

Then get them to put the whole lot in their high temperature parts washing machine to remove the crud, get them to skim the head and block mating surfaces and supply the new bearings and gasgate set.

 

Then go home and bolt it all back together.

 

Thats it, £7k plus vat and extras sir.

 

Hope that helps.

 

Ps I wonder why they had to dummy build the engine so may times? perhaps it is because they never get it right the first or second time, there again building a race engine requires additional attention to detail, mine revved to 8500 rpm so i needed to be sure I had tightened the bolts correctly!

[Bald Rick]

Matt

 

To give you some idea of what is available, have a look at Jigsaw Developments. They quote TR6 full engine rebuilds from £1865 for a standard engine to £2674 for a stage 2. Their specification looks good you can find them via Google.

 

They are quite a distance from you but if they are building engines for that sort of price I'm sure other nearer companies are doing the same.

 

I have no connection with Jigsaw other than buying parts which so far have been good.

 

I notice that Moss also do exhange standard full engines for about £2.5k as well. They have a branch in Bristol.

 

Hope this helps

 

Tony

Edited January 13, 2013 by Bald Rick

[Guest ntc]

You can never give a quote till the engine is dismantled

[Bald Rick]

Absolutely true Neil,

 

I should have said these prices are for exchange engines. So provided the core unit in not totally knackered those prices should stand and you would not be giving an engine re-builder a licence to raid your wallet. If the core unit is knackered then there is a surchage which is usually a fixed figure. So you still should know where you stand with no "hidden" extras.

 

Cheers

 

Tony

[Alec Pringle]

In case anyone is questioning Matt's comments, I have read the original emails between himself and the TR specialist in question.

 

The V8 Lady and I chorused a variation of John McEnroe's favourite observation, expletives not deleted.

 

Sadly, it's not the first time I have come across figures of that magnitude from said supplier. Mind boggling.

 

Divide the figures, pounds and hours alike, by 4 . . . . and it might become realistic - just my opinion.

 

We will be dropping the sump of Matt's car in a couple of weekend's time for a proper inspection !

 

As a separate topic, I will post the old ICME Repair Times from 1976 . . . . what we used to call "book time" in the trade, back when mechanics were proper motor engineers and not semi-skilled fitters.

 

Cheers

 

Alec

[Matt]

I'd like to thank you all for your feedback and Alec for his generous offer, I will keep you up to date on the progress!

 

The feedback I've have via PM's has been very encouraging in terms of total rebuild costs, not to mention the offers.

 

For a newbie like me the forum has once again been invaluable, not only in the form of replies to this post but reading past posts on different subject matter.

 

Thanks again,

 

Matt

[amclpreston]

..... back when mechanics were proper motor engineers and not semi-skilled fitters.

 

Cheers

 

Alec

 

Yes, they used to say that back in 1976 too..

 

Just to comment on the original poster's reason for wanting someone else to do the work... lack of time, space.,, expertise.

 

1976 was when I decided to rebuild my TR5.., bodywork, engine. Although at 24 I'd owned some interesting cars already..,

Riley 1.5, MGA, TR4, Saab 96 2-stroke.. I'd never actually done any work on them apart from use rather a lot of Cataloy filler paste.

 

I was fortunate in that I worked at an RAF base, and I dismantled the TR5 in their 'Car Club' , a large Nissan Hut. (big thing with

a roof and sides shaped like a semi-circle.)

 

As I remember, I think all I had to help me was the Stanpart TR5 parts catalogue with the breakdown pictures, and a TR4 Haynes

manual. For the engine part of all this, it was all really straightforward... bonnet off, remove ancillaries, head off, engine/gearbox out with

an A-frame hoist, then had a local engineering firm rebuild the short motor. Put it all back together again.

 

 

Contrast this whith years later, I owned a Dolomite Sprint that needed an engine rebuild. By then, I had highly paid work, and spent a lot of time on a driving commute to London every day. I didn't want to do it myself. So I found a classic engine rebuilder in Kingston-upon-Thames, took the car in to them and basically said.... "Fix it...". I can't recall how much it all cost, but think it came out only a little more than their original estimate. However,it took so long, all the drop-in visits on my way home from work... "How's it going...?". Followed by the convoluted explanations why no progress had been made since the previous week.

 

The real difference between the two, though, is that doing the work on the TR5 was hugely satisfying for me as a novice, whereas with the Dolomite, I'd done nothing other than reach for my wallet.

 

I suppose I'm saying....., you could always rent space..., a lockup.?

[Denis]

Some years ago I thought I heard what sounded just like Big Ends knocking on mine!

 

After stripping down to get to the front of the engine I found that one of the two dowels that locate the Crank Pulley to the nose of the Crank Shaft hadn't been located into the back of the Pulley! This meant that the Slot for the Steel Woodroff Keyway was taking the strain and had elongated the slot in the Softer Cast Pulley and that was the Knocking Sound!

 

So check that out, before you embark on a full engine rebuild...As Cushdrive Crank Pulleys were (are still?) rare as Rocking Horse Teeth, I had the slot specialist welded and I filed the slot myself to refit the Key. Made sure that both Dowel Pins went half way into the Pulley...Job done...knocking gone...no engine rebuild required!

Edited January 14, 2013 by Denis