Tom Fremont Posted January 2, 2013 Report Share Posted January 2, 2013 Don't I wish that were so, Neil ! IME, you don't get what you don't pay for, however Quote Link to post Share on other sites
john.r.davies Posted January 3, 2013 Report Share Posted January 3, 2013 If I may, the head above shows the chamber and ports reworked EXACTLY as recommended by Vizard. John Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Motorsport Mickey Posted January 3, 2013 Report Share Posted January 3, 2013 John, I don't think anybody said that Vizard was wrong...? if it's correct, it's correct. I wouldn't applaud anybody "doing their own thing" just to be different and "put their mark" on any headworking. I regard it as a strength of character if you can admit that someone else's work is as good as it gets ! It's the work that you don't see on other peoples heads and engines that allows them to win Mick Richards Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Tony Millward Posted January 4, 2013 Report Share Posted January 4, 2013 Mick, I don't see anything wrong with having a go yourself re porting, how else will anyone learn?. I certainly don't consider myself "bored and impecunious" but I'm not promoting a company as you appear to be. Head porting is NOT rocket science and anyone who can handle a dremmel is more than capable of porting. Tony Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Motorsport Mickey Posted January 4, 2013 Report Share Posted January 4, 2013 Tony, "but I'm not promoting a company as you appear to be." Wasn't aware I was, after all Simon did ask if we could recommend Triumph specialists he could approach to do the work for him ??? hence me relaying my experiences with one said specialist. If I had dealings with the same level of success with other companies, (I've dealt with some and didn't) I'd have told him about them instead ! "Head porting is NOT rocket science and anyone who can handle a dremmel is more than capable of porting". Sure they are, the trick is doing it right, (not all do) and having the hours to spend on tedious, dirty, foul tasting work that experts (choose you own from anybody else's recommendation if you think I'm partisan) will do for you at pricing you either like or don't. John said that for about £400 you could buy an Air die grinder with burrs to carry out the work and both he and Neil pointed out that the work would have to be done carefully to avoid removing material in areas you shouldn't and you also added Tony that the water jacket lies close behind the walls in certain areas in the ports. So we have a concensus that the porting can be done, but it has to be done carefully to avoid worsening the flow even, or catostrophically puncturing the water jacket if too much is removed ! If you put the cost of the air grinder and burrs towards a professionally prepared head from your chosen specialist (whomever) I daresay the costings would be in line. (thats a guess, I haven't had a head done for 20 years). In my own case I'm too old to devote time to tasks that others can do better, ( I have ported heads before with seemingly ok results) for what I consider a reasonable charge. Mick Richards Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Davidw Posted January 4, 2013 Report Share Posted January 4, 2013 I certainly would not presume to advice in this area, but I would say that (IMHO) getting the different components done by different people may lead to disappointment - unless the people concerned all know each other's work and are used to woking to a common spec. Apart from anything else, if the head is done by Fred the block by Tom the carbs/injection by Sid and then an off the shelf exhaust is clamped on the end, if it does not work properly, you are in for a long and tedious game of pass the parcel as they all blame each other! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
john.r.davies Posted January 4, 2013 Report Share Posted January 4, 2013 Mick, Each to their own, of course! My earlier post was to show that unlike most headporters who keep their secrets to themselves (and why not, they are hard won!), Vizard was very open about his vast experience and provided detailed advice which anyone can follow with confidence and success. Moreover, there is enormous satisfaction in achieving that success by your own efforts. Have you read "Zen, and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance"? Much of the philosophy in that is way over my head, except the lesson that someone who studies their machine, works on it and learns from it, gets far more pleasure from doing so than someone who has someone else do it. Having said that, few of us can or will devote the time and effort into the original research that lets someone like David Vizard or Gareth Thomas speak with authority, so we are riding on their backs, even if we do it ourselves. But as Newton said, we may see further by standing on the shoulders of giants. John Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Motorsport Mickey Posted January 4, 2013 Report Share Posted January 4, 2013 David, "Apart from anything else, if the head is done by Fred the block by Tom the carbs/injection by Sid and then an off the shelf exhaust is clamped on the end,...getting the different components done by different people may lead to disappointment" This may be a surprise but isn't that what TR rebuild specialists do ? It is possible for almost all of a TR rebuild to be done by an interested and skilled owner, I'm a time served engineer and I know that almost all the machining processes carried out on the TR I could do with access to the machines. However I decided that grinding the crank can be done by the crank specialist, the crank specialist decided that the tuftriding can be done by the trusted crank reconditioning firm he's useing, honeing the little ends can be done by another expert, balancing the crank and components done by yet another expert all with the machines and expertise to do things quicker and to a standard expected by me and probably for less actual cost. Importantly the firms involved utilised other firms with better or more efficient systems to carry out work in conjunction with them. As one of the TR posters says "You can't do everything yourself-neither should you". How many TR owners painted their own cars ? Last time I did mine because it was cheaper and I got pretty good results. However on my next rebuild and full paint I intend to use a professional paintshop, no time you see, and if I'm honest the expert will achieve a better result with his equipment. Agree there are certain things that lie together, for example I would never buy a cam from one source and the cam followers from another, or even use different cam lube than that supplied or recommended by the supplier of the cam. As you say that always leads to "it's their part that failed scenario", however you are doomed to not fulfill your maximum potenetial if you think that one supplier can supply all the best parts or even complete engine work or vehicle builds themselves. Why do you think that many (I can't say all, I'm not certain) of the TR suppliers use cylinder head specialists to sub contract to for their work ? They obviously decide they can't achieve the same results to the same standard at the prices charged, and with probably not the same insight into what will work with particular specifications. John, As above, I endorse your comments and quite understand the satisfaction that comes with having completed a process on your own car yourself. However if professional results are to be obtained and at pricing that your pocket decides is acceptable then I often use it. Mick Richards Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Alec Pringle Posted January 4, 2013 Report Share Posted January 4, 2013 Hi Mick, I think the key to David's comment is to ensure that specialists are working together . . . . as in establish a proposed engine spec, with a list of suppliers, and ensure that each specialist involved knows the full picture rather than just his little bit. That way the chap rebuilding the dissie, for example, can if needs be check data first hand with the cam supplier and the cylinder head man. The easier you make life for the specialists concerned, the more likely they are to make that little bit of extra effort for your project. And if they have the whole picture, they are able to offer any of their own comments at an early proposal stage . . . . which might well lead to a minor revision here and there, two or three heads being better than one, towards the final spec. Most of all, don't tell the bloke his job. Making a living at what he does, he doubtless knows a damn sight more about it than you or I or most Forum folks ! Some TR owners seem to feel they know the fine detail of most specialist areas better than the specialist himself, which leaves me baffled I'm afraid. Far better to explain just what you're endeavouring to achieve as end result, and let him make his considered input in conjunction with other specialists. Cheers Alec Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest ntc Posted January 4, 2013 Report Share Posted January 4, 2013 (edited) It takes many hours of work to get right Edited January 4, 2013 by ntc Quote Link to post Share on other sites
had17462 Posted January 4, 2013 Report Share Posted January 4, 2013 Just out of interest can you buy the gasket to match the porting,I only ask as the gasket I got was well out of line on a standard head, Regards nick Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Tony Millward Posted January 4, 2013 Report Share Posted January 4, 2013 Mick, whilst I agree that 'experts' can achieve a better job at most things we do with our TR's it should not deter the average owner from trying these tasks themselves. I would certainly not attempt to regrind the crankshaft myself as I don't have the required equipment but this is NOT what we were discussing. I certainly don't agree with the assumption that that getting all components done by one engineer is the 'norm'. If the engineer employed for each task is qualified for that that task then there should be no problems whatsoever. I find it interesting that to qualify your personal point of view Mike, that you should stray from the point that we were discussing ie. head porting which can be done by the average TR owner with help from the internet. If you have had all your work done by specialist's on your race car then you are racing someone else's car mate , not yours. I drive my car, built, sprayed and tuned by me and I love it....I really don't think you can say the same. Tony Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Tom Fremont Posted January 4, 2013 Report Share Posted January 4, 2013 I think the point, as per Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenaince ( on faith; haven't read it myself ), is to put as much as possible of one's self into the goal with the latter's importance governing so as to optimize outcome. With TRs and other unrelated projects I've undertaken it has often seemed that I expended the same effort to achieve the goal as if I hadn't enlisted any help whatsoever, owing to my constant shepherding of the process. I reckon that unless Mick's car(s) exist in exact duplicate elsewhere then they're his cars regardless of whether he had help realizing them . We can " own " our goals, as it were. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Davidw Posted January 4, 2013 Report Share Posted January 4, 2013 As always, Alec, you have expressed my view more elegantly than I did. That is what I was trying to say and I am grateful for your clarification. All the best David Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TRTOM2498PI Posted January 4, 2013 Report Share Posted January 4, 2013 NTC, who did that head. ? Neil Collingwood back in the day, or PB. ? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest ntc Posted January 4, 2013 Report Share Posted January 4, 2013 Nope not them Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TRTOM2498PI Posted January 4, 2013 Report Share Posted January 4, 2013 Not sure who Darryl uses these days. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
stephen cooper Posted January 4, 2013 Report Share Posted January 4, 2013 Nope not them helpful as ever Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Tom Fremont Posted January 4, 2013 Report Share Posted January 4, 2013 High compression then, eh Neil ? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest ntc Posted January 4, 2013 Report Share Posted January 4, 2013 Just shy of 10.5 Tom with decked block Stephen Your welcome Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Motorsport Mickey Posted January 4, 2013 Report Share Posted January 4, 2013 Now then Tony you're just tweaking my tail lol. I think anybody who raced against me realised that the cars that I built were not like anybody elses. One of the advantages that I had was the amount of time that was spent each close season (between 600 and 700 hours between myself and Geoff my mechanic) which made it difficult to compete against us because you would have to spend an awful lot of money on labour. This picks up on your point about building your own cars, we did to an absurd degree, and when we spent money on a specialist process it was because that firm could offer something that I couldn't do better myself. When you integrate that into the build it makes you difficult to compete against. With regard to working on your own cylinder head, as you say anybody can have a go at porting their own engine, but without a flowbench to prove what you've done you have to rely upon your interpretation of the existing published methods and template. Certainly by porting a head yourself it allows you to appreciate what work the experts do to complete one. But to return to the original posting and the request that Simon made for recommendations for a firm who could do a good job of porting his engine. I hope now having reviewed all these various posts he feels that the options listed by all allow him to make his choice of methods. David, As you say it is imperative if any specialists are used that they are advised what other specs are integrated into the engine which may have an impact upon their work and the final completed project. As the owner you have to project manage the process, as Tom points out above many of the specialists have yet to experience Zen they think he is a character in "Hitchhikers guide to the Galaxy" ! Mick Richards Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Tony Millward Posted January 5, 2013 Report Share Posted January 5, 2013 Now then Tony you're just tweaking my tail lol. Of course I am Mickey, i enjoy playing devil's advocate... but I really wanted to encourage people to 'have a go' themselves on certain jobs. Please post more video's of your races, the ones posted are great to watch. Cheers Tony Quote Link to post Share on other sites
John L Posted January 5, 2013 Report Share Posted January 5, 2013 The cylinder head on my car was I'm lead to believe by the PO a ported head, and inserts fitted on the valve seats, Does Peter Burgess mark the heads he does, as at the front on mine is stamped JEB 095 next to the serial number or part number 516816? Regards John Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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