angelfj Posted September 3, 2012 Report Share Posted September 3, 2012 We have been having a ball driving the Grey Lady and put about 1000 miles on the clock. However, as of this past weekend, we have now had four condensers fail. Here's an account of the first failure which prevented us from enjoying the breakfast run at the TRA meet in North Carolina. "TRA has a long tradition of conducting a breakfast run on Saturday morning of the meet. We were running the car up the mountain roads to the show field on Friday and noticed a misfire. We only had 25 miles on the car before we left for the show, and we had not yet established any history on the carburetor or ignition tuning. After the show, the car ran great for about ten minutes and then the miss came back. After inspecting the float bowls and swapping distributor caps, rotors, and wires, to no avail, we watched the breakfast run depart past us and our spirits sank. Reasoning that the condenser was the next logical substitution, we dove into our “spares department” tote bin and brought the car back to life with the next push of the starter switch." After returning home we have experienced three more condenser failures. The circumstances seem to be consistent. Start out, engine cold, runs great, smooth idle. Engine warms up, approx. 180F still OK. Get into a bit of traffic, usually stop light and as engine approaches approx. 2/3 full scale on the temp gauge, the engine begins to stumble. If I try to accelerate, the engines misfires and at times will backfire. After these incidents I have pulled off the road and gone for a coffee whilst the engine cools down. If the temp goes below half scale, about 180F the engine will start up and run nicely. Upon heating up a little the cycle repeats. We have conducted all of the usual checks and have ruled out timing and carb settings. Colour Tune looks ideal. The plugs are a bit sooty and we have considered going to the next highest heat range. But when we replace the condenser with a new one, the engine runs well regardless of temp. This fix does not last long though and eventually the condenser completely craps out, usually a few days later.. Considering that condensers are most difficult to test, we have reached this conclusion based on a process of elimination. At least one time a new condenser did not cure the problem and we could only conclude that it was dead out of the (green and white) box. So, perhaps you can offer your experience and suggestions. I hear that better condensers are available. Does anyone know of a source? Except for poor quality, is there anything else that may be causing these condensers to fail? Cheers, Frank Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ragtag Posted September 4, 2012 Report Share Posted September 4, 2012 Hi Frank, The days of being able to buy a reliable condenser are gone my friend. They are all made in PRC and are ****. Unless you need it for concourse, do yourself a favour and fit a Hall effect contactless system like Pertronix. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Menno van Rij Posted September 4, 2012 Report Share Posted September 4, 2012 (edited) Turn to Martin Jay (Distributor Doctor) for a proper condenser. He'll be happy to provide you with one and ship it to your address within days. Menno Edited September 4, 2012 by Menno van Rij Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ianc Posted September 4, 2012 Report Share Posted September 4, 2012 And buy two from Martin, then you will always have a good spare! If you haven't already done so, purchase two of his rotor arms for the same reason - I had two Lucas rotor arms (supplied in a green box, I seem to recall) fail in some 14 years, then Martin provided the answer! Ian Cornish Quote Link to post Share on other sites
angelfj Posted September 4, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 4, 2012 thank you gents - will contact J Frank Quote Link to post Share on other sites
stuart Posted September 4, 2012 Report Share Posted September 4, 2012 Frank check your coil. As too low an impedance will cook condensors for a past time. Should be 3 ohms if its 1.5 then that could be some of the problem. Any of the orange wired condensors are **** anyway. Martins proper red rotor arms are also highly recommended. Stuart. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Wykeham 99 Posted September 4, 2012 Report Share Posted September 4, 2012 Frank Have you considered the external condenser as made by Swiftune? Take a look at their website www.swiftune.com where it will tell you all about it. They use it on all their competition engines where it is necessary to keep the original points set up. I have got one and it is very well made and comes with full fitting instructions. Peter M Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ashley James Posted September 4, 2012 Report Share Posted September 4, 2012 I'd have thought condensers were fairly easy to test. A multimeter capable of relatively high resistance measurement will show leakage, open circuit or a short and for ten or fifteen quid you can buy a device from companies like Tenma that actually measure capacitance. Maplin, CPC or RS Components will oblige. If you have faulty condensers and that many, someone needs their arse kicking and facts are helpful. Stuart is right in that overheating coils do the same thing. I had three brand new Lucas coils fail because they were marked 12 Volts and supplied as 12 Volts suitable, it was driving me nuts and making me anxious about driving the car. My business partner is an electronics engineer and noticed straight away that they were drawing far too much current. I bought Quintin Hazel general purpose ones instead and had no more trouble. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
angelfj Posted September 4, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 4, 2012 Frank Have you considered the external condenser as made by Swiftune? Take a look at their website www.swiftune.com where it will tell you all about it. They use it on all their competition engines where it is necessary to keep the original points set up. I have got one and it is very well made and comes with full fitting instructions. Peter M Peter: No, I haven't, but that's because I wasn't aware of them. Thanks for pointing out yet another option! Cheers, Frank Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Don Elliott Posted September 7, 2012 Report Share Posted September 7, 2012 Frank - What a timely topic. Last night coming home in the dark, I had the same experience. The TR was running fine. It has been running like a jewel all summer so I was surprised when it would skip and buck during acceleration for the last 15 miles home. The engine was showing about 180 deg. F. If I was at a constant speed, or coasting to a stop or on a slight down-hill run, there was no bucking. But pulling away at stop signs and traffic lights, it was bucking something fierce. I made it home and turned off the engine. It re-started immediately and it revved up normally from idle in neutral in my garage. This morning after checking this topic, I took a look at my coil and capacitor. It wouldn't start at all. I took the wires off the coil on the low voltage side and measured 3 to 4 ohms so I knew the problem was not there, then I checked the capacitor. The problem was right there staring me in the face. The screw that is supposed to secure the capactor body to the ground plate was loose. I tighened it up and took it out for a test drive. The problem is resolved. Another simple solution to a simple problem, Quote Link to post Share on other sites
angelfj Posted September 7, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 7, 2012 Frank - What a timely topic. Last night coming home in the dark, I had the same experience. The TR was running fine. It has been running like a jewel all summer so I was surprised when it would skip and buck during acceleration for the last 15 miles home. The engine was showing about 180 deg. F. If I was at a constant speed, or coasting to a stop or on a slight down-hill run, there was no bucking. But pulling away at stop signs and traffic lights, it was bucking something fierce. I made it home and turned off the engine. It re-started immediately and it revved up normally from idle in neutral in my garage. This morning after checking this topic, I took a look at my coil and capacitor. It wouldn't start at all. I took the wires off the coil on the low voltage side and measured 3 to 4 ohms so I knew the problem was not there, then I checked the capacitor. The problem was right there staring me in the face. The screw that is supposed to secure the capactor body to the ground plate was loose. I tighened it up and took it out for a test drive. The problem is resolved. Another simple solution to a simple problem, Don: What a coincidence! Glad you got that sorted. Yes, that screw completes the circuit between the condenser tab and distributor plate. I added a tiny lock washer to keep it from loosening. Regards, Frank Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ianc Posted September 8, 2012 Report Share Posted September 8, 2012 Some 50 years ago, my TR2 started to misfire - the cause was fracture of the soldered joint between the body and the clip on the condenser. Took a while to find, but fixed easily. Ian Cornish Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Paul Down Posted September 9, 2012 Report Share Posted September 9, 2012 As Stuart and Ashley have said your symptoms are much more consistent with a coil overheating than a condenser failing. Condensers once failed do not usually recover when cool. but coils typically do this. Measuring a coils resistance can identify a wrong item but as they frequently fail by an internal short circuit between two adjacent windings a resistance measurement will not be affected. You need to measure its inductance to be sure. I would certainly change the coil for a known 12 volt one. Be careful though as many coils around these days have no manufacturers marks or idents and may be sold as 12 volt coils but are invariably 6 or 9 volt items that break down when hot. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Don Elliott Posted September 9, 2012 Report Share Posted September 9, 2012 There is an auto museum in Enfield - North London and on the day I was there (November 2010), I found out that they have all kinds of auto-jumble stuff in their work-sheds "just in case". I bought a coil with a Lucas label on it for my 1958 TR3A for £3 and when I got home, I checked the coil resistance. It read between 4 and 5 ohms which is close to spec. (3 ohms). Then I connected it next to my original coil from 1958 (185,000 miles on that one) and tested the spare one. The engine ran fine with the spare one - so now I always carry the spare coil when I travel. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Dave Larnder Posted September 9, 2012 Report Share Posted September 9, 2012 There is an auto museum in Enfield - North London and on the day I was there (November 2010), I found out that they have all kinds of auto-jumble stuff in their work-sheds "just in case". I bought a coil with a Lucas label on it for my 1958 TR3A for £3 and when I got home, I checked the coil resistance. It read between 4 and 5 ohms which is close to spec. (3 ohms). Then I connected it next to my original coil from 1958 (185,000 miles on that one) and tested the spare one. The engine ran fine with the spare one - so now I always carry the spare coil when I travel. Don/Frank If you look at the thread on my expansion tank picture that Menno posted for me, you will see my spare coil fixed to the battery holding plate. Frank, If it wasn't for your steel wheels then I could have thought that you were driving my car. Nice job! - well done. Dave Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Menno van Rij Posted September 9, 2012 Report Share Posted September 9, 2012 Frank, I know that your goal was /is to keep the car as original as possible, but apart from the fact that it's worth investigating the status of your car's coil, it's worthwhile to consider moving the coil from the hottest place under the bonnet (...) to a much cooler place: in LH side inner wing. Menno Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest ntc Posted September 9, 2012 Report Share Posted September 9, 2012 (edited) Never moved a coil in 30+ years from where it was put by the factoy for road use and never had a failure Edited September 9, 2012 by ntc Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Don Elliott Posted September 9, 2012 Report Share Posted September 9, 2012 (edited) My coil on my 1958 TR3A is the original one that came with the car new in 1958. It is mounted where it was when it left the factory and in 54 yeras, I've never had an issue with it overheating, etc. The date of manufacture 11-57 is stamped into the bottom of the coil. Edited September 9, 2012 by Don Elliott Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Richardtr3a Posted September 10, 2012 Report Share Posted September 10, 2012 I have had a problem this summer, with starting when hot. On the way back from Le Mans I would not stop unless on a hill. Then I could use a rolling start. I replaced the coil with a new one from Moss which I have had for years. This seemed to be an answer until the traffic jam in to Beaulieu this week end. The engine was very hot and running a bit roughly. I managed to keep it going for the 45 minutes until I parked. Then I tested it and starting was very erratic. At the Accu spark stall I bought a sports coil. It is in a green box, Lucas LB 105 and there is a sticker on the bracket that says Lucas. However the coil itself has no markiings at all.It is gold in colour. What have I bought? They also had red rotor arms and in conversation told me that they had ordered 10,000 . Would these be comparable to martin Jay's rotors? Thanks Richard Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ashley James Posted September 10, 2012 Report Share Posted September 10, 2012 I had three or four Lucas coils fail before my business partner came in the Bentley and noticed that it was drawing far too much current. He's an ex defence avionics engineer and once worked with the Lucas engineer who designed the forrunner to the PerTronix/AccuSpark electronic ignition system, the former was used on Silver Shadows and Range Rovers. I say all this to give some credence to his observations. Firstly he believes that Lucas coils, for several years, have been marked as 12 Volts, but are either six or intended for a ballast resistor. Either way, they draw too much current and keep failing because they get too hot. Lucas isn't Lucas and who know where the stuff comes from? Pattern parts are and always have been a nightmare. Our cars need a general purpose 12 volt ignition coil, not a sports one unless your TR revs to 15,000. Fitting a sports coil won't help performance, but it will increase spark rise time which often results in rotor arm failure. I use an AccuSpark points distributor, the timing curve is accurate and it's superbly made, probably better than an original Lucas and it cost £36, so a no brainer. They are so cheap you can have a new one every time the points need replacing or convert it to electronic for under £30! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ianc Posted September 10, 2012 Report Share Posted September 10, 2012 Martin Jay's rotor arms are inexpensive and best design and quality - having had two genuine Lucas boxed rotor arms fail in the last 19 years, I wouldn't risk the use of anything else. For a standard engine, I think that the coil can remain bolted to the engine, but for competition there are two advantages gained by moving to the left inner wing: (a) it's cooler, ( one can place two coils side by side, and swapping connections in the event of failure takes just a few seconds - and that can make a very real difference in a rally. Ian Cornish Quote Link to post Share on other sites
angelfj Posted September 10, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 10, 2012 Some 50 years ago, my TR2 started to misfire - the cause was fracture of the soldered joint between the body and the clip on the condenser. Took a while to find, but fixed easily. Ian Cornish Ian: Great long-term memory - but what did you eat for breakfast this morning? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Don Elliott Posted September 11, 2012 Report Share Posted September 11, 2012 Someone above wrote that condensers with an orange lead wire are not reliable. Well the one I had been using for the past several years has an orange wire. So I rummaged about in the spares I carry and found an old used one with a black lead wire and installed it. It also runs fine. Then I took a look at the brand new one still in a green "LUCAS" box and it has an orange lead wire. Also the ground plate seems to be soldered to the end of the body whereas the other ones with the orange lead or the black lead show 3 spot welds. Also the brand new one still in the box shows all kinds of flaky white corrosion residue on the body of the condenser as well as on the ground screw base. I hope I don't ever have to use it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
billp Posted September 11, 2012 Report Share Posted September 11, 2012 Just remember gents that there's "Lucas" and "Lucas"....Lucas items in a correct Lucas box might be genuine new old stock handcrafted in Brum by experienced gnomes to an original ,tested and arcane formula some years ago, or they might be of recent manufacture stamped out elsewhere.....I had both condenser and rotor arm fail on the TR3 last year...both came in shiny Lucas boxes but were I suspect of recent manufacture. I replaced at the roadside with grubby,very old part worn items of Birmingham build I was carrying for emergencies...no more trouble and they are still in there giving good service...indeed, I'll bet they get me to Goodwood this week....however, when next I see the Dissy Doc, I'll pay up for some new ones, just in case......Bill P Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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