Expansion tank

[Dave Larnder]

Dave's solution is very neat, but I am a little concerned that the hose connected to the radiator (the left of the photo) is a push fit onto the tube, yet will be subjected to either 4 or 7 psi (depending on radiator cap) when the engine is running. I would expect such a pressure to blow the unclipped hose from the pipe - and a clip is required at both ends, of course.

 

To answer Don's question regarding the positioning of a Header Tank in a TR4, see my article in Section B19 of the Technicalities CD (there are photos). It's not the only possible mounting point, but it is very close to the radiator and makes good use of the front of the bulge on the right side of the bonnet!

 

Ian Cornish

 

 

Hi Ian

 

It took me to Morges and back like that without any trouble. The inlet to the tank has a bobble on the end and I had to drop the plastic pipe in hot water to get it onto the pipe, but I take your point. The cap is a 4lb rated one and as I said in my article on the Morges visit, I experienced some +40 deg.C temps during the run.

 

Dave

[Dave Larnder]

Would this be any good?

 

http://www.triumphsp...&product_id=147

 

Tom

 

 

Hi Stiggy

 

That must have been where I got the idea from as I stated earlier, but I didn;t pay half that for my one, made for me, from my drawing, by a radiator manufacturer all in brass plate and pressure tested to 15lbs/sq.inch.

Another point from Ian's reply, I tried a 7lb cap before I bought the tank but it did no more than the 4lb one it still blew out the overflow pipe to the road.

 

Dave

[Menno van Rij]

I discussed the header tank issue with the guys who have helped me restore my TR. Both were very impressed by Dave's solution. As a matter of fact, they had an old English white TR on the ramps for maintenance when we looked at the pic. Within seconds, one of us held the laptop in his hands, and two other two looked at the screen and at that TR's engine bay at the same time!

 

But, one of the mechanics had an interesting question: 'Does it cure the problem (overheating) itself or is it a way to deal with the problem?' 'Yes' on the first part of the question would mean that a header tank is an upgrade to a fully functioning cooling system. Making it a 21st century system. If it's 'yes' to the second part of the question, it would mean that the problem of overheating still exists and that the header tank only 'cloaks' the initial problem!

 

I must say that driving a TR in 40 degrees with modern day fuels is daunting even with a properly functioning system. In that case, a header tank can be a valuable contribution. I think that TRs in a more moderate climate, like her in Northern Europe, can cope with a standard system and an electric fan.

 

Back to a question I asked before: can a TR's cooling system cope with a 7 lbs cap? I would be worried that a 7 lbs cap will compromise the heater's matrix, causing havoc on your knees!

 

Menno

[BlueTR3A-5EKT]

Here is my car. - Current solution. jpg

 

The other photo is how I considered the solution originally with a bit of MG behind the wiper motor. I did not do it as I wanted a solution that did not involve drilling even MORE holes or trailing pipes across the engine bay. - MG solution . jpg

 

On the issue of radiator caps not sealing and water pumping out, I have often found this to be down to the wrong length pressure cap being fitted - simple measure of the neck depth of the rad and the plunger length of the intended rad cap. It is easy to fit the short one in a deep neck and out will pour the water.....

TR4 late and onwards use a shorter length than TR2-early 4. As in 3/4" compared to 1" depth.

TR2-3A used 4lb, 1" reach. - Unipart GRC103

TR4 early on radiator with extension header tank use 7lb, 1" reach - Unipart GRC102

Later 4, (no extension) 4A, 250, 5 and early 6 used 7lb. with 3/4" reach - Unipart GRC112

Later 6 (CR and CF models) went to a 13lb cap. still with a 3/4" reach. - Unipart GRC114

 

If in doubt measure the radiator filler neck depth.

 

 

 

Cheers

Peter W

Edited August 29, 2012 by BlueTR3A-5EKT

[Menno van Rij]

Here is my car. - Current solution. jpg

 

The other photo is how I considered the solution originally with a bit of MG behind the wiper motor. I did not do it as I wanted a solution that did not involve drilling even MORE holes or trailing pipes across the engine bay. - MG solution . jpg

 

On the issue of radiator caps not sealing and water pumping out, I have often found this to be down to the wrong length pressure cap being fitted - simple measure of the neck depth of the rad and the plunger length of the intended rad cap. It is easy to fit the short one in a deep neck and out will pour the water.....

TR4 late and onwards use a shorter length than TR2-early 4. As in 3/4" compared to 1" depth.

TR2-3A used 4lb, 1" reach. - Unipart GRC103

TR4 early on radiator with extension header tank use 7lb, 1" reach - Unipart GRC102

Later 4, (no extension) 4A, 250, 5 and early 6 used 7lb. with 3/4" reach - Unipart GRC112

Later 6 (CR and CF models) went to a 13lb cap. still with a 3/4" reach. - Unipart GRC114

 

If in doubt measure the radiator filler neck depth.

 

 

 

Cheers

Peter W

 

 

That's useful information! Thanks for these details. But again, why the difference between a 4 and 7 lbs pressure cap. Since it's 4 lbs for the 2/3/3A and 7 for the 4 and onwards, I tend to go back to my initial thought that the 2/3/3A's heater matrix isn't suited for the 7 lbs. (The 4 and onwards have a different heater, hence the higher pressure cap, perhaps?).

 

Menno

[BrianC]

I always assumed the difference was due to the early-type heater matrix fragility, but maybe ST found that the cooling was marginal on the sidescreen cars and simply increased the pressure to raise the boiling point sightly on the TR4 onwards.

[stuart]

On the early cars the neck and the top tank itself is essentially the header tank and if you fill it right up it will lose water continually. It must be filled so that when looking down vertically into the neck you can see the level just covering the bottom surface of the neck and no more. If its still throwing it out with the correct 1" deep 4lbs cap then you have a problem else where. On the later cars (4a on) the top of the rad where the filler cap goes is actually lower than the thermostat housing and the expansion bottle is your only place for the water to go but its a bit of a marginal system as it depends on having the overflow pipe all the way to the bottom of the bottle and a small amount of fluid already in it to cover the end of the pipe. It also requires the correct "recovery" cap to enable the expanded amount to be recovered back into the rad when it cools down. I use the expansion tank idea to ensure that the thermo housing is full all the time and ease of checking as its next to the dipstick so you can do both at the same time, job done.

Stuart.

[Ashley James]

, presumably as I have an Apple Mac machine and the method must be different for loading on.

 

Dave

 

 

I've been victimised for using Apple too Dave and despite they're being the biggest company in history or whatever, this odd forum doesn't understand OS X or iOS 5 about to be 6. I think it's a poor show.

 

I have none of the posting option or smileys on this iPad and to post an image I must post its address between IMG in square brackets at the front and /IMG in square brackets at the end.

 

Ash

[Dave Larnder]

Hi Menno, Stuart and Ash

 

My present set up uses an RC4 - 4lb cap with 1" neck depth. If I take the unpressurised cap off the old rad. neck, the fluid is right up to the top and not 1" deep from the bottom as it was before I fitted the tank, as Stuart states is and was correct. When I fitted a 7lb cap, it still overflowed onto the road when it overheated so that was not the answer, here I would add that I do NOT have a heater in my car for obvious reasons so the 7lb posed no problems, also I have a Kenlowe suction type fan.

I may not understand the mechanics of my system, all I know is it works, although in some of our elevated day temperatures the gauge does go up to about the 210 deg.C level but no more, as it did before the tank when I went to CLM in 2010 it nearly reached 230 deg. C which caused me to stop, cool off and refill the rad which as I said took 7 litres over the whole journey there and back, but around half the journeys were started around 3-4a.m. when it ran normal.

Ash, I now have a PC so I can load photobucket, but have yet to try it.

 

Dave

[TR24178]

 

 

I've been victimised for using Apple too Dave and despite they're being the biggest company in history or whatever, this odd forum doesn't understand OS X or iOS 5 about to be 6. I think it's a poor show.

 

I have none of the posting option or smileys on this iPad and to post an image I must post its address between IMG in square brackets at the front and /IMG in square brackets at the end.

 

Ash

 

 

Ash

 

I have no problem doing whatever I want on this forum, this with my imac, and with my macbook, don't quite get ipad!

 

Is the cooling system on a TR that marginal that they need all this palava, i hope the ally rad I got off a forum member will do the job!

 

John Worthing

[Menno van Rij]

An alloy rad will help, no doubt. If you're having a alloy rad, I'm sure you dropped the starter hole thus enlarging the cooling capacity about 20%. Use the search function find out all sorts of do's and don'ts about cleaning the cooling system and improving it. The header tank is one of them.

 

If you're installing a new rad, perhaps it's useful to read this: http://www.tr-register.com.au/Files/technical/radbolts.htm very simple but very effective!

 

(off topic: I'm on a MacBook Pro at the mo. An iPad and this forum's software do not agree well. I always use Photobucket for pics on this forum).

 

Menno

[Dave Larnder]

John and Menno

 

I don´t see how an ali rad will make any difference at all, except to the weight.

When i had my original rad. rebuilt without the crank handle hole, they gave me what they call a 5 pass staggered type to get the best cooling surface because of the greater area caused by more passes. The original one with hole only had 3 passes max

Rather spend your extra money on the header tank circuit.

Dave

[Guest ntc]

The alloy rad makes a whole lot of difference that with the cowl the fan will very rare kick in

[Menno van Rij]

Apart from saving weight, alloy transfers heat better. I think this article is nice to read: http://www.are.com.au/feat/techtalk/ALUMRAD.htm

[Richardtr3a]

When I fitted a 7 lb cap there were water leaks from the water pump, thermostat housing etc. i put the 4lb cap back and all is well.

[Fireman049]

Don't forget that you should fit a pressure cap intended for the expansion tank. Fitting the one from your TR might not be suitable

for the tank.

 

Tom.

[Menno van Rij]

Earlier this morning I had the chance to drive another TR3A for once. The seller is thinking about selling his and he wanted to know what I thought about his car. Apart from the fact that the front end needs an overhaul, there were a few other details (not on topic here). When taking the car for a test drive, I noticed that the car's running temp -according to the needle on the gauge- was higher than my car's. Apart from the suggestions about this on the forum, there was one thing that I noticed when my car and his car were parked side by side after the test drive: the size of the grill's bars on his car is totally different. The bars on my car are small, the bars (horizontal and vertical) on his car are thicker, thus blocking about 20 - 30% of the possible airflow! I remembered that we discussed it here on the forum at the time that I restored my car. In fact, I had my original grill repaired to ensure maximum airflow.

 

Perhaps something to consider.

 

Menno

 

Here's a pic of a car with the thicker bars (pic from the internet - not the seller's car)

 

 

Here's a pic of my car's grill:

 

 

 

Perhaps something to consider when addressing your car's cooling capacity.

Edited September 1, 2012 by Menno van Rij

[Fireman049]

Hi Menno ~

 

I modified my grille to make the bars as narrow as possible. My grille is now like yours. It's also important that the

air scoop is fitted behind the grille. I made mine from aluminium and I alaso included a metal section above the scoop to make sure the air goes through the radiator and not over the top of it. Just look at the air intake on a TR2.

If you'd like a photo. of my scoop please PM me your email address.

 

Tom.

[Menno van Rij]

Thanks Tom,

 

When I bought my TR, it came without the 'scoop'. Within a few weeks, I obtained one because after reading various forums back then, I was obvious my car needed one. (LIke my Spitfire 1500 needed one too). I was planning to make an alloy scoop, like yours. When I got to the point during the restoration that I had to make my alloy scoop, a TR on the back of a recovery truck entered the workshop where I was working at the time. The TR had been hit by another car and the front apron + grill were damaged. So was the radiator! It turned out that this TR had an alloy scoop as well... and it's edge was pushed back through the rad core! That's why I decided to use the cardboard version... And yes, I added a 'plinth' on top of the rad to be sure that ALL air is entering the radiator.

 

(A while ago, I saw a 3A with a similar scoop as yours. The owner of that car drilled a 80mm hole on the RH side, next to the radiator and attached a flexible hose on the back of the scoop. The hose faced backwards and ended just in front of the front carburator, thus making sure that there was enough cold air entering the airfilters/carbs!)

 

Menno

Edited September 1, 2012 by Menno van Rij

[Fireman049]

Hi Menno ~

My air duct is also fitted with a hole for the attachment of a length of heater cold air trunking which terminates just in front of the front carburettor. Cold air is essential for peak performance. I've also provided holes for the oil cooler pipes.

 

My oil cooler also has a air duct fitted to concentrate cold air through it.

 

Tom.

Edited September 1, 2012 by Fireman049

[Louis]

Hi Menno, good point with the grill... Now where can I get one like yours...? Ive not gone down the expansion route yet since the kenlowe fan and cowel fit, the temperature seems good 80-85 and holding steady while on the move. Even after a bit of traffic the cowel helps get the temperature down really quick, with the fan cutting in rarely. So just the static temp climb with engine off but nowhere as bad now as it was.. thanks to all you guys....

[BlueTR3A-5EKT]

Earlier this morning I had the chance to drive another TR3A for once. The seller is thinking about selling his and he wanted to know what I thought about his car. Apart from the fact that the front end needs an overhaul, there were a few other details (not on topic here). When taking the car for a test drive, I noticed that the car's running temp -according to the needle on the gauge- was higher than my car's. Apart from the suggestions about this on the forum, there was one thing that I noticed when my car and his car were parked side by side after the test drive: the size of the grill's bars on his car is totally different. The bars on my car are small, the bars (horizontal and vertical) on his car are thicker, thus blocking about 20 - 30% of the possible airflow! I remembered that we discussed it here on the forum at the time that I restored my car. In fact, I had my original grill repaired to ensure maximum airflow.

 

Perhaps something to consider.

 

Menno

 

Here's a pic of a car with the thicker bars (pic from the internet - not the seller's car)

 

 

Here's a pic of my car's grill:

 

 

 

Perhaps something to consider when addressing your car's cooling capacity.

 

 

Many years ago a customer shouted long and hard at me that the repro TR3A grille I had sold him was blocking the airflow due to the thickness of the grille bars, and causing overheating on his car.

 

I looked at his car from under the bonnet, put my arm in down by the side of the radiator and gave him two fingers through the grille. I told him to fit the radiator card duct to get the air to go into the radiator rather than round it, just to see if that helped, and if not come back so we could discuss further. I even gave him a radiator duct kit.... guess what... I never saw him again.

 

Cheers

Peter W

[Menno van Rij]

@ Louis,

 

Hi Menno, good point with the grill... Now where can I get one like yours...?

 

Here: http://www.tr-regist...showtopic=36939

 

Used Stanpart 3a front grille- vgc £100;

 

used Stanpart large stoneguards fair/good condition £30:

 

2-3a Indoor fitted cotton cover unused £45

 

Pair of original headlight shells with all rims/fittings in good condition.fitted with original lucas tripod units but reflectors not unuseable.£50:

 

NOS unused Lucas Tripod headlight unit with LUCAS centre badge -still in Lucas box £100.NB NOT sealed beam type

 

pair of original Stanpart bakelite bulb holders VGC /complete with clips etc & with 3 x new Lucas bulbs in boxes £50 .

 

Stanpart Ali Thermostat housing late 2-4a £25

Original Smiths brass bellows thermostat 80 c/176 F as used in above housing working order £15.

 

3A Girling brake/clutch master cylinder & pushrod - used but vgc- no corrosion in cylinder £25

Rubber Seal for master cyl supply tank cap £1

 

Vent Lid spring £3

 

New Boot lid aperture rubber seal - early channel type £15

New Spare wheel aperture rubber seal £7.50

New sealing rubber on bulkhead to door(603257) 1.7 mtrs & clips £15

 

2-3a Ferodo Fan Belt - use but vgc £5

 

New unused Push/pull overdrive switch complete with knob £15

 

Email james.tomczyk(at)sky.com [nb (at) =@] or call 07977096484

Postage at cost or collect free from Northwich Cheshire or can deliver to Beaulieu 8/9 Sept

 

 

 

 

 

------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

 

@ Peter:

Many years ago a customer shouted long and hard at me that the repro TR3A grille I had sold him was blocking the airflow due to the thickness of the grille bars, and causing overheating on his car.

 

I looked at his car from under the bonnet, put my arm in down by the side of the radiator and gave him two fingers through the grille. I told him to fit the radiator card duct to get the air to go into the radiator rather than round it, just to see if that helped, and if not come back so we could discuss further. I even gave him a radiator duct kit.... guess what... I never saw him again.

 

So, basically what you're saying is, that the thicker bars do not restrict the airflow and that it all comes down to the radiator duct. I agree with you about the duct, but since a 3A's cooling is marginally, every cubic inch of free flowing air is welcome, I think. I've even read about rally shields in front of the grill, restricting the airflow.

 

Please correct me when I'm wrong.

 

Menno

Edited September 2, 2012 by Menno van Rij

[MilesA]

Of all the issues to attend to in the root cause analysis of improving the cooling on my 3A I had not come across different width grill bars. Looking at my 3A now, I see that it has the thicker bars on its grill. I agree from experience that the cowl makes the most difference and even with an oil cooler in front of the rad', as I have, and assuming everything else relating to cooling is properly adjusted, installing the cowl has pretty much stabilised the temperature at 85.

 

However, If you are looking for further marginal cooling I have also constructed and installed an air scoop under the floor of the front apron to direct air into the lower third of the rad. It is unobtrusive (unless you are lying on the ground!) and easy to construct / install with 2 jubilee clips. The design came from 'Cleo's Dad', another forum member. If I was to do this again though I would flare the sidewalls outwards to increase the volume of air captured.

 

 

 

 

 

Miles

[BrianC]

Air scoop is a nice idea if you have a problem, but I'd want a grill over it to drive on some of the country roads with loose gravel and stones just waiting to be fast-tracked into the rad!

Never had a problem with overheating without the ducting on either of my TR3As, although I've always had what I think is the original grill aperture spacing (or close to it). Current one is either a Stanpart or early Cox & Buckles replica bought late '70s I think.

Edited September 2, 2012 by BrianC