swanage1996 Posted August 1, 2012 Report Share Posted August 1, 2012 Hello everybody , I recently acquired a genuine TR8 efi (build 12/1979), and I'm in the proces of giving the car a complete overhaul. My question is about the catalysator's in the exhaust system. How do I know when to replace them? Are they still available in the Uk? Or can I do without these catalysator's? If yes, will this have an effect on the car's performance, and will the ECU give any trouble? All information on the above is most welcome. Thanks in advance and kind regards, Luc M. (flanders,Belgium) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Alec Pringle Posted August 1, 2012 Report Share Posted August 1, 2012 Hi Luc, getting shot of all the emission control can only be a good thing. It will certainly improve power and torque. The ECU may well not like it, and require replacement - perhaps by an SD1 Vitesse EFI unit, for example. Cheers, Alec Quote Link to post Share on other sites
stansoldman Posted August 1, 2012 Report Share Posted August 1, 2012 I agree with Alec, Thats what i am running in my 8 SD1 efi unit, runs sweet as a nut.... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Odd Posted August 1, 2012 Report Share Posted August 1, 2012 (edited) How do I know when to replace them? They're 30+ years old by now and will most probably need to be replaced - you buy and fit generic catalysts for 2.5 litre engines. One in each of the pipes... Easy piecy, and while you're there have the exhaust shop replace the rest of the exhaust system with stainless... Are they still available in the UK? You don't want to fit 30+ years old NOS units, it's much cheaper and more efficient to fit modern generic after market catcons. If you care about the air we, our kids and their children have to breathe... Or can I do without these catalysator's? If yes, will this have an effect on the car's performance, and will the ECU give any trouble? You CAN, but why would you want to? For above reasons... The difference in performance is negligible - due to the third world kerosene tractor type pistons fitted into the US version V8. But IF you dump the cats - for heavens sake DON'T take the lambda sensors off!!! The ECU doesn't talk to the catcons, it talks to the lambda sensors (and don't give a damn if there really are any catcons downstream of the lambda sensors) and gets it feedback on injection efficiency from the lambda sensors. So they are vital to the ECU for performance and well being! You'd be much better off by fitting a set of 9.75:1 pistons - THAT would give a difference in performance! Edited August 1, 2012 by Odd Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Alec Pringle Posted August 1, 2012 Report Share Posted August 1, 2012 Driving a V8 TR and worrying about the environment don't exactly go together. 10.5:1 pistons from a P6 will do a considerably better job, especially if the head is skimmed too. Cheers, Alec Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Odd Posted August 2, 2012 Report Share Posted August 2, 2012 (edited) Driving a V8 TR and worrying about the environment don't exactly go together. That's just my point, it does! Driving the RV8 with a set of fully functioning catalytic converters makes it a non issue - the only thing coming out of the exhaust pipes are hot water vapour and carbon dioxide. But, without functioning catcons: God only knows all the nasty components coming out of the tail pipes. And then it's time to think twice about actually driving the car... Edited August 2, 2012 by Odd Quote Link to post Share on other sites
swanage1996 Posted August 2, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 2, 2012 Hello Odd and Alec, Thanks for both your opinions on the cat's, with the information at hand I can make a proper and clean solution to the issue. Performance and enviroment should be able to go well together. I have decided to put in new Cats (see what's on the market)and if I want more performance I just put my right foot down a bit harder. After all , driving a TR(8) all comes down to Fun and pleasure for all. Thanks , and greetings , Luc M. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Alec Pringle Posted August 4, 2012 Report Share Posted August 4, 2012 (edited) There is rather more than hot water vapour and carbon dioxide emitted . . . . . nitrous oxide, for example. Whether or not the oxidisation of carbon monoxide to carbon dioxide is a good thing depends on your point of view, it is not a clear cut benefit. Nitrous oxide emissions are another matter entirely, and probably the best argument for dumping the cat converter philosophy in favour of pursuing lean burn engines - but going back to the original development of cats, they seemed to offer far more profit to vested interests than lean burn technology . . . . . The commonly available ECUs appropriate to a Rover V8 of EFI vintage are not best suited to modern cat converters, and the cat is extremely unlikely to be working at anywhere near its full potential even on a standard engine - on a tuned engine, or one supplied with enhanced octane fuel, the cat will soon enough be achieving somewhere between notalot and buggerall. Given the modest and dwindling number of V8 TRs still in service, their emission impacts upon the global environment are in any case rather less than the proverbial drop in the ocean. Considering the substantial environmental impact of actually manufacturing a cat, for a low mileage classic vehicle the manufacturing impact of the cat probably far exceeds its potential to reduce the in service impact of the car to which it is fitted. As an aside, if the car is running on lubricant rich in ZDDP, that will soon enough strangle the wretched cat anyway . . . . and you've just found the 102nd use for a dead cat, surplus weight on your TR8. Sorry to be disheartening chaps, but the road to hell was ever paved with good intentions. Cheers, Alec Edited August 4, 2012 by Alec Pringle Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Odd Posted August 4, 2012 Report Share Posted August 4, 2012 (edited) Alec, I'm sorry I forgot to list nitrogen gas as one of the exhaust gasses beside water vapour and carbon dioxide. But I'm glad you brought the subject up - since your statement made me search for an explanation in English to put here (in my native Swedish I could have written it in my sleep...) and an easy to read text was found in the English language Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia....lytic_converter where the modern day three-way catalyst for petrol engines are explained. And apart from the oxidizing reactions that converts carbon monoxide (CO) and unburned hydrocarbons (HC) together with oxygen (O2), it also explain that vital third part; the reduction reaction that converts oxides of nitrogen (NOx) back into nitrogen and oxygen. And in the end the products are: nitrogen (N2), carbon dioxide (CO2), and water (H2O)... And since even those very first efi TR8 Rover V8 engines from 1979/80/81 had Lambda sensors (two in fact, one in each downpipe), closed-loop ECU electronics and purpose-built three-way catalytic converters - they did all that exhaust treatment from the very beginning. [The carburettor+air pump'd TR8 had two-way catcons.] Sure, I know the then catcons were not the most longlived of ceramic monoliths, but they can (and should!) very well be replaced by modern generic after market units to give the desired end pipe result. It's just a sad fact only a minority of all TR8 sold back then were fitted with efi And as a side note on ZDDP - most all modern petrol engine oils have catcon-safe levels of zinc and phosphorous in their additive packet so that's another non-issue (when it comes to fitting new catcons). But flat tappet life is a whole other issue - and it's not just for fun Woody have started to sell roller lifter kits for the RV8... Edited August 4, 2012 by Odd Quote Link to post Share on other sites
chris turner Posted August 4, 2012 Report Share Posted August 4, 2012 On my 1981 TR8 efi I have taken off the catalysts but replaced both lambda sensors with new ones. Very low emmissions when the car was MOT tested and it goes much quicker. It also uses less fuel. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Alec Pringle Posted August 4, 2012 Report Share Posted August 4, 2012 Hi Chris, of course the TR8 is quicker and more economical without the cats, the damn things strangle what is already a relatively gutless V8. Hi Odd, UK spec EFI V8s didn't feature cats or any such nonsense, which is why I suggested dumping the whole emission control kit and caboodle in its entirety and replacing it with something that works properly, as in a Vitesse EFI unit. Or better still, chuck out the TR8 lump and replace it with a Vitesse EFI engine complete. Power increase at the rear wheels of around 50% . . . . . Sorry, but getting carried away with fitting cats to our old V8s is Political Correctness gone mad - on a par with apologising for 19th Century colonialism, or giving the vote to prisoners in jail. Just because something is possible doesn't make it logical or sensible. Cheers, Alec Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Odd Posted August 5, 2012 Report Share Posted August 5, 2012 (edited) Hi Odd, UK spec EFI V8s didn't feature cats or any such nonsense, which is why I suggested dumping the whole emission control kit and caboodle in its entirety and replacing it with something that works properly, as in a Vitesse EFI unit. Or better still, chuck out the TR8 lump and replace it with a Vitesse EFI engine complete. Power increase at the rear wheels of around 50% . . . . . Well Alec, that's another matter- I was writing on what Luc Mahieu (who I think it is) in Belgium could easily do to his ex-US (?) TR8 efi. While still keeping it as JRT originally intended it to be... I did not understand his question in such a way that tossing the entire US specification TR8 efi engine and finding/fitting a complete SD1 Vitesse (or late VDP) efi would be a viable/easy solution. For the simple reason there are not many Vitesse or VDP efi donors to be found outside of your island... (I myself had to buy the rear of an UK VDP auto to get my 2.84 CWP.) If changing out the engine had been in Luc's original question I would have recommended getting a '95-'98 LandRover Discovery 3.9 V8i - a much better engine to start with and easy to find most everywhere, and also easily adapted to all the non-efi ancillaries of the original engine - and then work from there. H--l, if I could do this - anyone can... And here I end my comments in this thread. I think both our opinions have had enough space... Edited August 5, 2012 by Odd Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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