sarajitTR6 Posted February 18, 2012 Report Share Posted February 18, 2012 Last night I was reading the Williams restoration book where he says a clear manifestation of hogging is when the chassis ends can be seen below the rear valance from a distance behind the car. Can someone explain how this is possible..... given that on a perfect body and chassis that has been shimmed and fixed properly, if the chassis drops the body should move with it. Shouldn't it? What am i missing? I had the car up on the lift and went through the chassis front to back and it was clean with none of the rust shown in pictures. The T shirt is fresh and clean. Outriggers fine. But the door gap widens from bottom to top on both sides. Im trying to identify the source of this. Maybe 1. Williams is right. Then where has it weakened? Maybe 2. Body fitted wrong. At which location? Maybe 3. Sills? Thanks... Sarajit Quote Link to post Share on other sites
littlejim Posted February 18, 2012 Report Share Posted February 18, 2012 (edited) whoops!! see below. Edited February 18, 2012 by littlejim Quote Link to post Share on other sites
littlejim Posted February 18, 2012 Report Share Posted February 18, 2012 Mr Williams was talking about what might happen as you weld in repair bits on a chassis where you had to cut some significant chunks out. The welding, as it shrinks, can gradually distort the chassis rail. I was grateful that he mentioned it as I had a lot of rust to cut out (a 4A) near where the "T shirt" is welded on the chassis. (on the chassis bottom of course.) Despite trying to spread the MIG welding around a bit, the back of the chassis started moving. I anchored it to the cement floor with turnbuckles and steel straps bolted to the cement floor, the chassis of course was upside down so I was welding the patches to the bottom, which now was conveniently 'on top' for me. If your only problem is door gaps why not sort them out with Stewart's 'lead loading'. My door gaps were improved that way. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Tony Millward Posted February 18, 2012 Report Share Posted February 18, 2012 Hi Sarajit, You can improve the gaps by fitting extra packing washers on the rear body mounts. There are two behind the rear wheels and two on the back parcel shelf behind the seats. You could try removing one each side on the parcel shelf and fit an extra one each side on the rear mounts, this will actually bring up the rear of the body and decrease your gaps at the top. This will, however, show a bit more of the chassis rails from the back of the car but I wouldn't worry unduly about this ...unless it's extreme the get someone knowledgeable to check it out for you. The spacers by the way, are c shaped aluminium washers about 5mm thick. Cheers Tony Quote Link to post Share on other sites
stuart Posted February 18, 2012 Report Share Posted February 18, 2012 This is what you should see of the chassis from behind. It may be that the rear wings have been replaced by repros which are notorious for having the wrong angle at the front edge to the door (as you describe gap widens to the top) Re shimming isnt really an option as there is a re-enforcing fillet at the bottom of the "B" post which negates the effect of altering them and can cause more problems than it solves. Depending on how the bottom of the rear wing matches with the rear "cut in" of the sill it may be possible to gain a bit of adjustment there to move the bottom of the wing back a bit to even the gap a little. How does the back end of the wing match with the back panel/boot lid as there may be some scope there for general adjustment. Ultimate answer to poor gaps is to lead fill the front edge of the wing to match the door. Like this. Stuart. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Alec Pringle Posted February 18, 2012 Report Share Posted February 18, 2012 You can worry too much about ruddy door gaps. When our cars were built, they had a large space between trailing edge of the front wing and leading edge of the rear wing. All that mattered was that the door went in there - and opened and closed, more or less. Size of the resultant gaps between door and wing or sill edges was irrelevant. Sow's ears and silk purses. Sure you can build a car with perfect gaps, but they won't be after a few thousand miles of proper ragging . . . . . Cheers, Alec Quote Link to post Share on other sites
sarajitTR6 Posted February 18, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 18, 2012 Stuart, the pictures have been very helpful. The extent of chassis visible under the rear valance is similar. And the the extent of filling in uired reqon the wing would also be about the same. I incorrectly thought 'chassis hogged' is in the context of the chassis rails naturally weakening over time . What I have is more likely poor door gaps down to bad wings or door skins. I have had this experience on the etype where repro panels are really poor, even at top prices. So, as this is more a cosmetic job I agree with Alec.... more important things to do than perfect door gaps. Will do when it goes in for a paint job. See you all at Stoneleigh. Cheers Sarajit Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Tony Millward Posted February 18, 2012 Report Share Posted February 18, 2012 Nice one Stuart, I wish I was that gifted with solder.... I might get a lot of practice in when I start my TR2 resto.....you will probably get a few PM's from me..... Cheers Tony Quote Link to post Share on other sites
stuart Posted February 18, 2012 Report Share Posted February 18, 2012 You know where I am Tony There is always a lot of lead in a 2. Stuart. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
pinky Posted February 18, 2012 Report Share Posted February 18, 2012 love the pics stuart you must get that video up and running for the lads that tors did for you (lead loading) as for door gaps it is very much up to the individual how you visually see the car how much of a perfectness you are how much effert you are prepared to put in, so it is pleasing to the eye, pink Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ragtag Posted February 19, 2012 Report Share Posted February 19, 2012 (edited) Stuart's answer explains exactly the problem with my 6. I have the classic hogged chassis door gap problem, but only on one side. That would be the side with the repro rear wing. One day, I might do something about it but it won't be any time soon. I work on the basis that I can't see the door gap from the driver's seat Edited February 19, 2012 by Ragtag Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Tony Millward Posted February 19, 2012 Report Share Posted February 19, 2012 I would love a copy of that lead loading video guy's.....please?... Cheers Tony Quote Link to post Share on other sites
harrytr5 Posted February 19, 2012 Report Share Posted February 19, 2012 And Me Pinky. Regards Harry TR5 Nutter. P.S. See you at Stoneliegh? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
david johnson Posted February 19, 2012 Report Share Posted February 19, 2012 I don t understand Alecs referance to panel gaps, a comment he has made before. One of the paramount factors that affects the value of any TR are the panel gaps, denoting the standard of any rebuild, and affecting the pleasure of ownership. Many are now much better then when first built, and on some even weeks have been spent getting them right. The panel gaps are referred to in the majority of sellers info, particularly when sold by dealers. There is one car in the Devon area that has unbelievably good panel gaps,as good as a Golf, and it is rightly admired as a high value, high pleasure car. Some have such bad panel gaps that even though sound they have have limited value.David. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest ntc Posted February 19, 2012 Report Share Posted February 19, 2012 I don t understand Alecs referance to panel gaps, a comment he has made before. One of the paramount factors that affects the value of any TR are the panel gaps, denoting the standard of any rebuild, and affecting the pleasure of ownership. Many are now much better then when first built, and on some even weeks have been spent getting them right. The panel gaps are referred to in the majority of sellers info, particularly when sold by dealers. There is one car in the Devon area that has unbelievably good panel gaps,as good as a Golf, and it is rightly admired as a high value, high pleasure car. Some have such bad panel gaps that even though sound they have have limited value.David. That will be a SWB version then Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RogerH Posted February 19, 2012 Report Share Posted February 19, 2012 Hi David, the panel gaps do not affect the value of the car until you come to sell it - but why sell it Any untoward gaps surely do not affect the driving appeal or the size of the silly grin when driving it. Any seperate chassis car has the possibility of things moving. When the time is right the gaps can easily be sorted. Roger Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Alec Pringle Posted February 19, 2012 Report Share Posted February 19, 2012 Cor blimey o'riley, I'll be buggered if I can see why panel gaps should be "affecting the pleasure of ownership". That's good enough to make me fall off the chair hooting ! You can't even see the damn things when you're driving, and they have a negligible effect on performance in aerodynamic terms unless you're talking about a racer topping 130mph. On the other hand, a box full of lead sticks for those so-called perfect gaps might well slow things down a bit . . . . Ads for panel gaps "denoting the standard of any rebuild", sorry but pull the other leg, it's got bells on. I've seen TRs with door gaps that VW Audi would be proud of, but that didn't alter the fact that they drove like a Beetle with asthma, nor yet that the chassis was likely to assume component piece form if you went over a hump back and flew for 10 yards. A bag of shite is a bag of shite, regardless of how much effort some anally retentive individual has put into its panel gaps, at the expense of its mechanical performance. Bottom line, it's a sports car, a driving machine, built to drive for the hell of it as opposed to getting from A to B in the most economical, unobtrusive or extrovert fashion - choose any one of the latter, depending on your individual priorities. What matters is what it goes like. I can think of several TRs that look fairly doggy, but get in and drive 'em and it's a different matter, they've got soul and balls and communicate through the seat of your pants, and would leave the Concours Hall contenders trailing in their wake on the open road. Maybe when all the oil has run out the only future for TRs will be as museum pieces of monuments in glass cases, and fair enough then there'll be nothing else to do but endlessly rebuild them in the search for mythical perfection. Now there's some prospect . . . . Meanwhile, if a would-be TR buyer is going to base his valuation on panel gaps as the primary parameter, then may the force be with him, he'll need it. As long as the panels fit fairly tidily, that will do nicely, we're talking mass-produced budget sports cars of half a century ago that are worth a relatively few grand - not precious bleeding relics valued in ton sacks of silver. Panel gaps may well indicate a competent and conscientious rebuild, but all that glisters is not gold, and many are the cars whose beauty is but skin deep. Agreed, panel gaps are drivelled on about endlessly by some dealers and by some buyers. That doesn't mean they are right. Like the poor, the deluded and foolish are ever with us. Cheers, Alec Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mike3739 Posted February 19, 2012 Report Share Posted February 19, 2012 Alec I have been waiting for you to post on this. It was well worth the wait, spot on on all points. I would much rather have a TR that drove like a sportscar & handled like a sportscar with a internal grin any "driver" would appreciate than thinking everyone is so envious of my slimest panel gaps. We have "Drivers", "Polishers" & now "Panel Gapers" or is there a better term. Maybe there is a train of thought that cars with small panel gaps are worth more due to the current scrap price of Lead.? Only my thoughts. Cheers Mike. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest ntc Posted February 19, 2012 Report Share Posted February 19, 2012 All it takes is a sound car to start with and more time than the guys that put them together in the first place,and yes I drive mine as it should be done Quote Link to post Share on other sites
stuart Posted February 19, 2012 Report Share Posted February 19, 2012 (edited) That will be a SWB version then As opposed to the LWB version only available in Red. Stuart. Edited February 19, 2012 by stuart Quote Link to post Share on other sites
GreenhillTR6 Posted February 19, 2012 Report Share Posted February 19, 2012 I think mine may have been a red LWB version at some stage judging by the panel gaps but hey she goes well and I have more sleepless nights worrying about 'other stuff' rather than the huge mm discrepancies in my doors, bonnet and boot alignments Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest ntc Posted February 19, 2012 Report Share Posted February 19, 2012 It's a bit of banter chap nowt on telly Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mike3739 Posted February 19, 2012 Report Share Posted February 19, 2012 Andy Where are your Black Sills & Stainless Strips? that will reduce the price in the eyes of some dealers. Cheers Mike Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Alec Pringle Posted February 20, 2012 Report Share Posted February 20, 2012 Why is a TR like a dog ? It's for life. So is the price and/or value even relevant to the price of eggs ? The more I think about it, the more baffled I get in respect of folks worrying themselves silly about the perceived price or value of their ruddy TRs, or any other car for that matter. Looking back over 45 years, I don't think I've ever sold a car to the highest bidder. More than a few times I've sent some plonker off with a flea in his ear, regardless of his wadge of folding and his readiness to buy. Why would I wish to sell my car to a complete pillock ? I'm not a dealer. Many a time I've sold the car for less than its supposed value, simply because I liked the buyer and felt comfortable with the deal. It went to a good home, I was happy with that. And at least I've never fallen out with a buyer. And I sleep like a log. Isn't that part and parcel of being an enthusiast ? Or have I lost the investment plot ? Cheers, Alec Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Davidw Posted February 20, 2012 Report Share Posted February 20, 2012 I agree with both your posts, Alec. The problem is (as I have said before) that when the prices rise astronomically, the cars start to attract the attention of professional thieves and suddenly I can't just dump the car in any car park and wander off for a stroll, secure in the knowledge that the local pond life will walk straight past and steal the Saxo with the phat alloys and the exhaust like a cannon! . It's a bit like house prices. You can't eat the house, because if you sell it you have to find another. Same with the TR, so the prices are irrelevant, unless you trade down to project and then build it to your own exact spec. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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