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Tr3a rear crank oil seal....


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Hi All,

 

I have the engine and box out of the car, carrying out what i would call a mini resto at the moment.

 

I have separated the two parts.

 

The bellhousing was thick with oil, so i will replace the front oil seal on

the gearbox, as a matter of course, release bearing is loose and on its way out, will be fitting new taper pin

and secondary roll pin(not one fitted) replacing the bushes on the cross shaft, and possibly fork.

 

Here is a photo, in which you can see i have wiped around the inside.

 

DSC00671.jpg

 

 

Now i looked at the engine, and was wondering if the rear oil seal was the culprit

for the mess in the bellhousing, or indeed the dried oil i found all the way down the exhaust.

 

So i marked and removed the flywheel, the back of it had some oil on it.

 

Heres a picture with the flywheel removed and you can see what appears to be oil staining or a run

from the face of the oil seal, at six oclock.

 

DSC00672.jpg

 

 

So i am unsure of my next step, i will replace the oil seal to the gearbox etc, but what to do with

the crank, the oil seal has been bolted up without any sealant, should there be some?

If so would i get away with slackening off the bolts and putting sealant in there.

 

Or.... is it a case of removing the sump, removing the crank to put in new seal etc

which seems a hole load of work, and new to me.

 

Your advice and experiences welcomed

Thanks

 

Guy

Edited by Jersey Royal
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Christian (Mad Marx) on here does a lip seal conversion that doesnt involve machining of the crank and is by all accounts a very good mod. Best give him a PM.

Stuart.

Edited by stuart
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Christian (Mad Marx) on here does a lip seal conversion that doesnt involve machining of the crank and is by all accounts a very good mod. Best give him a PM.

Stuart.

 

 

Hi Guy

Could you share what you find out from Christian as I fear I have a similar problem which will require attention soon sad.gif

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Well,

 

I have found this which has all the info on Christians Mod

 

http://www.tr4-racing.de/eng/madmarx-racing.html

 

And the installation manual

 

http://www.tr4-racing.de/download/splitseal.pdf

 

Looks pretty good with good instructions even i can follow.

Wondering where you get an alignment tool, or does this need to be made up.

 

I had hoped i would not have to remove the crank.

 

Thanks for the Lead Stuart.

 

Cheers

Guy

Edited by Jersey Royal
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Guy, can you source a crankshaft mandrel (a tool for centring the rear oil seal) ?

 

If yes, it's possible to realign -or replace- the 2 halves of your rear oil seal, without removing the crank.

I have done this several time with 100% success.

 

Chris.

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Well,

 

I have found this which has all the info on Christians Mod

 

http://www.tr4-racin...arx-racing.html

 

And the installation manual

 

http://www.tr4-racin...d/splitseal.pdf

 

Looks pretty good with good instructions even i can follow.

Wondering where you get an alignment tool, or does this need to be made up.

 

I had hoped i would not have to remove the crank.

 

Thanks for the Lead Stuart.

 

Cheers

Guy

 

 

Guy, I have that same supplemental oil seal waiting to go into my engine. I bought the kit from TRF who buys them from Joe Alexander I think and Joe makes up a correct alignment tool. If you go down this route and have a problem sourcing the right tool locally send me an email.

 

Stan

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...........is this an oxymoron ?

 

The elegant tear drop of vital fluid, dropping every second from the rear crank seal of a wet liner, has something of a poetry :D

 

Chris.

Edited by Chris59
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Guy, I have that same supplemental oil seal waiting to go into my engine. I bought the kit from TRF who buys them from Joe Alexander I think and Joe makes up a correct alignment tool. If you go down this route and have a problem sourcing the right tool locally send me an email.

 

Stan

 

 

 

Hi Stan

 

I found the Joe Alexnder website

 

http://the-vintage-racer.com//index.php?main_page=index&cPath=5&sort=20a&page=2

 

And the TRF

 

http://trf.zeni.net/TR2-TR3Handbook/7.php

 

And you can buy the centering tool. In both there is a charge for "Core", any idea what that is.

 

Another option i have found is the Revington Oil seal kit.

 

http://www.revingtontr.com/shop/product_display.asp?mscssid=KRKH04AMPXE49LKLMFJEH6ULAJPQ3GUC&ProductID=RTR1026K

 

I am going to find out what is envolved with fitting the Rtr kit.

 

If this oil seal is a common issue with the Tr3 and Tr4, whats everyone using, or is it

just a case of the TR marking its territory <_<

 

And Chris you may consider the oil dripping out of the rear seal as "poetry"and "elegant" but its simply a pool of oil under the car, and on the garage floor. <_<

 

 

Cheers

Guy

Edited by Jersey Royal
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Hi Stan

 

I found the Joe Alexnder website

 

http://the-vintage-r...sort=20a&page=2

 

And the TRF

 

http://the-vintage-r...sort=20a&page=2

 

And you can buy the centering tool. In both there is a charge for "Core", any idea what that is.

 

Another option i have found is the Revington Oil seal kit.

 

http://www.revington...ductID=RTR1026K

 

I am going to find out what is envolved with fitting the Rtr kit.

 

If this oil seal is a common issue with the Tr3 and Tr4, whats everyone using, or is it

just a case of the TR marking its territory <_<

 

And Chris you may consider the oil dripping out of the rear seal as "poetry"and "elegant" but its simply a pool of oil under the car, and on the garage floor. <_<

 

 

Cheers

Guy

 

 

Guy, while this seal does not require machining the crankshaft it does require a specially machined seal housing so that is what they are referring to. Joe provides a pre-machined housing with his kit and needs your old one so he can make up additional kits. The machining is minor but required so that viton seal can be fully located,

 

The original scroll oil seal is really quite effective but it is designed to drip. We will see if this additional seal takes care of that last drip..

 

Stan

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Guy, while this seal does not require machining the crankshaft it does require a specially machined seal housing so that is what they are referring to. Joe provides a pre-machined housing with his kit and needs your old one so he can make up additional kits. The machining is minor but required so that viton seal can be fully located,

 

The original scroll oil seal is really quite effective but it is designed to drip. We will see if this additional seal takes care of that last drip..

 

Stan

 

Hi Stan,

 

Thanks for clearing that up for me, makes sense.

 

I have ammended the Trf link in my previous post.

 

Cheers

Guy

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Thanks Stuart, will see how things go.

 

Heres a link that shows one way of replacing the seal

 

http://www.macysgarage.com/myweb6/Rear_seals.htm

 

Cheers

Guy

 

That involves machining of the crank which means a complete strip of the engine. I believe Christians version doesnt require that.

Stuart.

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Hi Guy

I had one that was very messy like yours and it was gearbox oil leaking from the small plate located just behind the crosshaft in your photo

by far the cheapest fix i have done, although the box had to come out.

ROY

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That involves machining of the crank which means a complete strip of the engine. I believe Christians version doesnt require that.

Stuart.

 

Stuart,

 

From Christians instructions the crank also comes out as he shows in pictures, it has too as he uses an alignment tool

to centre the housing.

Although Chris59 has achieved it with the crank in place, using a crank mandrel. I have no idea

what a crank mandrel is, so did a web search, are they car specific, ie will need the correct size for the Tr3 motor?

For info Revingtons version of the seal requires the scroll to be machined off, there kit comes with new housing plates

Thanks

 

 

Hi Guy

I had one that was very messy like yours and it was gearbox oil leaking from the small plate located just behind the crosshaft in your photo

by far the cheapest fix i have done, although the box had to come out.

ROY

 

 

Strangely Roy i have the box out and angled , so the oil should reach the seals, i was hoping to see oil come out, but nothing.

Maybe it would need the oil to be warm, more viscious, to show the leak. Or possibly that mess is all from the engine rear seal.

I will change the seal in the box and redo the plate underneath.

Thanks

 

Cheers

Guy

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I've read the instructions and while I'm not familiar with this type of work the instruction photographs do seem to be based upon having the crank out. It's not so clear if it can be done with the crank still in the engine / car.

 

I might be interested in this seal myself and when I took my gearbox out in 2009 my own gearboxbellhousng was covered in oil.

 

5952162756_c1ba05a22a.jpg

Gearbox 19-06-09 _01

 

I note that Moss now sell a rear seal alignment kit shown at http://www.moss-europe.co.uk/Shop/ViewProducts.aspx?PlateIndexID=20512 but at about £50 it's not cheaap for something you might only use once.

 

Paul

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Guy

Oh well worth a try, when i proped my box at an angle so that the oil would be on the plate seal it leaked quite happily.( cold oil )

This is an interesting post though as i like the sound of a seal that dose not require any machining .

Roy

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Hi Guy/Paul.

 

We have a mandrel in the Cumbria Group Special tools box!

 

happy to loan it to you Guy, - IWE?

 

John.

 

Hi John,

 

Wow,

 

Thanks very much indeed, :rolleyes:

If you would take it to IWE

i will pick it up from you there.

 

Cheers

Guy

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Guy, can you source a crankshaft mandrel (a tool for centring the rear oil seal) ?

 

If yes, it's possible to realign -or replace- the 2 halves of your rear oil seal, without removing the crank.

I have done this several time with 100% success.

 

Chris.

 

 

 

Chris,

 

 

Thanks to John, i will have a crank mandrel on loan. :rolleyes:

 

I would be grateful for further tips on how you achieved replacing the oil seal.

 

Cheers

Guy

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Guy, can you source a crankshaft mandrel (a tool for centring the rear oil seal) ?

 

If yes, it's possible to realign -or replace- the 2 halves of your rear oil seal, without removing the crank.

I have done this several time with 100% success.

 

Chris.

 

Hi Chris, I can't work out how you use the mandrel without removing the crank, the mandrel I used was firmly held in place and centered by the rear main cap,(so the crank had to be removed) then the two previously fitted halves of the seal were be aligned and bolted in place.

Cheers rob

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I will try to explain, but my English may be not good enough :unsure:

 

Once the oil sump and flywheel are out, remove the rear crank cap with the lower part of the seal.

 

Remove (for cleaning and checking condition) the upper half of the seal, by rotate him around the crank, once you have removed the small screws.

 

At this stage, I always put an hydraulic jack under the crank, to minimize the stress due to the "sprung" weight.

 

Now that you have the rear main cap, and two halves of the seal, remove the bearing from the cap.

It may still be stuck by the oil on the crank.

 

Find a metal bar (or piece of strong wood), drilled with 2 holes corresponding to the holes in the main cap, + 2 long bolts, you will be able to tighten the mandrel, between the bar and the cap. DO NOT overtight, or you may broke the cap !

 

Once firmly tighten, adjust the lower half of the seal (preferably new) with sealant on the cap, + tight the screws.

 

If the mandrel has the correct dimensions, the lower half seal must be in contact with the mandrel, as close as possible.

 

Refit the upper half seal with a light coat of sealant, free of movement for the moment.

 

Put back the bearing shell in the cap+lower half seal assembly on your crank, and tight at the correct torque.

 

Adjust the upper half, you should have no play between the 2 halves of the seal.

 

I often do this job with the engine in the car, no need of any of the usuals workshop facilities.

 

It have done this several time, but now use a "home made" tool, who looks like the other half of the cap (ie the part where the other crank bearing goes in the engine bloc) instead of the metal or wood bar : in facts it's nearly a cap, but with oblong holes, as all the engine blocs are not identically "in line" bored.

 

If you don't understand what I try to explain, I can send the explanations in French,to Badfrog, who will be able to translate B)

 

Chris.

Edited by Chris59
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Forget this : once you have the 2 halves of the seal in hands, check with the mandrel that their outer edges are correctly aligned, as it will be the only way to align correctly the upper half in situe.

 

Chris.

 

PS : I have looked at Mad Marx' adaptable crank seal : it's a very good solution, worth trying with an old original alloy seal !

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I have installed Christian Marx's new seal in the 3A engine I recently built. I very much like his design, particularly not having to machine off the scroll from the crankshaft. It does require crankshaft removal at least with typical tools. I am still sorting out a few leaks that were inevitable on startup, but so far everything is looking very good. I've already purchased another kit with the hope of eliminating the lake of oil that is under my TR4 currently. For what its worth, I used the mandrel tool made by Joe Alexander and I believe it worked well.

 

I suspect that I will never completely eliminate the drips from my Triumphs, unless of course I forget to fill the sump.

 

Regards,

Randy

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