Chilliman Posted May 6, 2011 Report Share Posted May 6, 2011 Fellow live axle owners, whilst awaiting the return of my chassis from CTM I have been preparing for the rebuild of the suspension and running gear. I have now got to the point that I need advice on the rear suspension. I need to decide what to do about the rear shocks - I have got a new set of standard lever arm shocks but whilst at this stage wondering if it is worth converting to a rear telescopic damper set-up instead of the lever arm. My thinking being that I can fit a set of spax adjustable which would offer more control over the rear handling than the lever arm set up. I have read about the Das 9 & 10 shocks and upgrades but have a feeling the conversions would be the better option....as you will appreciate I am not a purist and want a fast road car that retains its superb outer appearance but with more modern technology applied where possible. Have any of you done this conversion....is it worth it? All views - both good and bad would be appreciated Thanks John Quote Link to post Share on other sites
4Mal Posted May 6, 2011 Report Share Posted May 6, 2011 Hi John, I have a Fast Road spec car and have retained lever arm shocks ( uprated ) at the rear. I'm pretty happy with the handling and don't see enough, for my usage, to convert. I do have uprated rear springs as well as uprated springs and dampers + the negative camber link at the front. TR Enterprises provided a matching suspension set up as part of the rebuild. I did take a previous owner out in the car who said " I didn't know they could handle like that" Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ade-TR4 Posted May 7, 2011 Report Share Posted May 7, 2011 I too have a set of the uprated twin-valve rear shocks: They're superb and don't require bodywork modification (Drop TR-Tony a line, he's explored this area very thoroughly) Revington's spring-eye locating washers and polybushes for the shackles seem to help locate the rear axle better. I'd concentrate more on getting the front end dialed: Spax/ Koni/ Gaz shocks, Uprated springs, neg camber links, anti-roll bar, polbushes etc. Get the front to go where you want it and the back tends to follow it quite nicely, even in standard trim. If you do decide to go down the converted rear end, please keep us posted: I'm sure it'd be an interesting article! Cheers Adey Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Chilliman Posted May 7, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 7, 2011 Mal, Adey, Thanks for the sensible comments - the front end is certainly where the most changes will be taking place - pretty much as per your list Adey, I may just settle for the uprated lever arms on the back but it would have been interesting to hear from anyone who has made the conversion as to what problems they may have encountered and the difference it made...food for thought! thanks John Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mark1965TR4aBRG Posted May 7, 2011 Report Share Posted May 7, 2011 I've fitted poly bushes front and rear and have uprated (lowered) springs and Dax adjujstale shocks all round. Front anti roll bar kit awaits the 6 front valence part to return from powder coating. However, I have not considered negative camber links - Can someone explain more about these please? I understand it will give negative camber and presume that means a flatter contact patch between tyre and road with the centrifugal/down forces experienced when cornering hard.. If it's a wothwhile thing to do, I'll get the necessary parts.. Thanks Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Chilliman Posted May 7, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 7, 2011 Mark, Theres a lot of issues to be considered when changing the camber angle - the nature of use of the car for one but probably the main thing is the type of tyres. When these cars were first on the road they ran on cross-ply but the modern radials perform best with a slightly negative camber as opposed to the original positive camber....I hasten to add that my knowledge is based on reading extensively not practical experience and I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ianc Posted May 7, 2011 Report Share Posted May 7, 2011 DAS10s work very well, and I am told the uprated DAS9s (as marketed by Big Tony) are very good. I imagine you have had the mounting brackets reinforced, because uprated dampers do impose a considerably greater force on the bracketry, and you don't want cracks to appear. On my first TR2, one of the brackets cracked right across - but on the early TR2s, the bracket reinforcement was pathetic! TR4s are much better, but not (in my opinion) adequate if the dampers are uprated. I have attached a picture of the mounting bracket for DAS10 on 4VC - pretty beefy! Ian Cornish Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Tr4Tony Posted May 7, 2011 Report Share Posted May 7, 2011 Hi Id hesitate to say I marketed the twin valve DAS9 Ian ! various Armstrong people might get very grumpy. I have used them lots on both BST and other cars and spouted on as you know! There are a couple of options for the rear shocks on the TR4 that Ive tried, and you probably need to consider whether you are keen to have either body or chassis modifications or want it all to remain standard. The twin valve DAS9 (if you can source them) are a direct bolt on replacement for the single valve type and basically give you double the damping power as one piston acts in bump, the other in rebound. They can be endlessly rebuilt and seem to have a very long service life in reasonable use. Even in road use they make the rear of the car work significantly better because the oil in the shocks never overheats or foams, so they are a good bet. They also seem pretty much vice free, although you do need to keep an eye (as with any others) on the peened on arm as they sometimes come loose and need putting back on, although a bead of weld on the splined end stops this at source. There is also an adjustable version of this shock but they are like hens teeth and fitting does require a notch to be cut in the chassis top to clear the brass adjusting knob and to allow for some room to get fingers in to move it. These are nothing short of excellent and work well even in rally use. The DAS10 (as on 3VC and 4VC etc.) is basically the same shock body as the TR4a to TR6, but with a different arm on it. This shock body is bigger than the DAS9 and therefore the turret on the chassis needs to be cut off and replaced with one which allows the fitment of this shock (as shown in Ian's picture of 4VC). You can go a bit further with an adjustable version but again this needs further modification to the chassis, gives better damping due to the extra piston allowing 1 to push and the other to pull, plus the adjustability. Bits are hard to get for these as per the DAS9 adjusters but they are worth the effort in my view, if you can source them. Lastly, telescopics .... which can be fitted using a chassis bracket (which I dont like as it bangs on the body and generally looks like a B&Q solution) or fitting by fabricating a shock turret into the side of the rear wheel arch (which is what I have on BST). I use a set of Spax currently and they work very well, but getting it all in straight and setting it all up was a bit tricky and here I had to call on the help of some friends who know what they are doing. TR Enterprises can supply the bits ...... I have to say that this arrangement is pretty mighty, but leads on to a series of other things which need to be dealt with (easy enough), and on a road cars this might be all too much for some. Its also not particularly reversable (because the turrets are welded in to the inner body) but otherwise all thats required is a fabricated bracket to attach to the base of the spring where the lever shock link plate mounts, turrets, shocks and a few bushes. I know that there are Koni alternatives and some very expensive 3 way Penske shocks which can be interchanged with the Spax, but I have nt gone there yet. Both should be better than Spax in use I expect as per my experience with the fronts. Regards Tony Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Chilliman Posted May 7, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 7, 2011 Thanks Ian – that is some major reinforcements you have there on 4VC for the DAS 10’s – I didn’t realise the early turrets were so weak. Tony, good info thanks and exactly what I was looking for, after much deliberation I’ve dumped the idea of the telescopic conversion and acquired myself a nice set of DAS 9’s instead! This has to be one of the best things about this forum - sound advice based on experience and quickly provided! Cheers John Quote Link to post Share on other sites
stuart Posted May 7, 2011 Report Share Posted May 7, 2011 Thanks Ian – that is some major reinforcements you have there on 4VC for the DAS 10’s – I didn’t realise the early turrets were so weak. Tony, good info thanks and exactly what I was looking for, after much deliberation I’ve dumped the idea of the telescopic conversion and acquired myself a nice set of DAS 9’s instead! This has to be one of the best things about this forum - sound advice based on experience and quickly provided! Cheers John Dare we ask what the DAS9s cost Stuart. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Chilliman Posted May 7, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 7, 2011 Hi Stuart....PM sent! John Quote Link to post Share on other sites
67_gt6 Posted May 8, 2011 Report Share Posted May 8, 2011 I've fitted poly bushes front and rear and have uprated (lowered) springs and Dax adjujstale shocks all round. Front anti roll bar kit awaits the 6 front valence part to return from powder coating. However, I have not considered negative camber links - Can someone explain more about these please? I understand it will give negative camber and presume that means a flatter contact patch between tyre and road with the centrifugal/down forces experienced when cornering hard.. If it's a wothwhile thing to do, I'll get the necessary parts.. Thanks your front susp is different on the 4A - already has some negative camber, and can be adjusted further by playing with the shims between the inner lower fulcrum mountings and the chassis. however if I were you the first thing I would do is check that your lower mountings are the two stud type as they only came with one on the 4A and may not have been replaced by the previous owners. they are prone to breaking away from the chassis with interesting results. i bought new 2 stud mountings from Revington with extra long studs and fastened them to the chassis using aluminium strenghthening plate washers, also available from Revington. andy andy Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Paul Hogan Posted April 5, 2020 Report Share Posted April 5, 2020 Has anyone got any info on a negative camber rear axle? I know I've seen it done to a race car but I'd like to how it was done. Surely there must be issues with the splines into the diff and bearing wear. Also, do you remove the axle tubes and machine the diff casing or would you heat weld the top of the tubes close to the diff to shrink it as some NASCAR racers do? Any answer gratefully received. Hoges. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Motorsport Mickey Posted April 5, 2020 Report Share Posted April 5, 2020 Think internal...(not eternal) Knuckle joint driveshaft (small dia) running inside the axle tubes allowing the splines to run at a small degree angle (the tubes were only angled slightly) to give no more than 2 deg camber on the hub and wheel. Easy to take a segment out of the tube and reweld together to close either side, because there is no movement of the driveshaft or tube the angles on the joints are fixed and fairly minor. Interesting to develop but you have to consider it means the rear tyres will be compromised on grip when running in straight lines and the tyre only applying max grip in corners when the outside tyre is in compression allowing the 2 deg camber to become vertical, and with the added disadvantage that the inside tyre now has an indicative 4 deg camber applied to it with consequent loss of grip there. Mick Richards Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Drewmotty Posted April 5, 2020 Report Share Posted April 5, 2020 (edited) You would only need to alter one tube and one half shaft and then run the diff at a slight angle. The quick and dirty way is just to bend each tube a bit and let the slop in the half shaft splines earn its living. I’m sure that the diff wouldn’t complain too much at running 1/2 to 1 degree out of alignment. A simple improvement might be to slightly taper the ends of the splines to introduce some extra slop. Keen racers tend not to be too bothered about longevity. Edited April 6, 2020 by Drewmotty Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Motorsport Mickey Posted April 6, 2020 Report Share Posted April 6, 2020 (edited) 12 hours ago, Drewmotty said: You would only need to alter one tube and one half shaft and then run the diff at a slight angle. The quick and dirty way is just to bend each tube a bit and let the slop in the half shaft splines earn its living. I’m sure that the diff wouldn’t complain too much at running 1/2 to 1 degree out of alignment. A simple improvement might be to slightly taper the ends of the splines to introduce some extra slop. Keen racers tend not to be too bothered about longevity. Yes, but they tend to want to finish races ! and a car that is constantly unreliable with an ongoing problem is not how you win races or championships, that's why the "cambered rear axle" was completed as I described. As it is I only know of one example. Mick Richards Edited April 6, 2020 by Motorsport Mickey Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MichaelH Posted April 6, 2020 Report Share Posted April 6, 2020 (edited) I took my axle to BPA who simply bent the axle tube to give me a little neg camber and a little toe in When running Yokohama AO48s on the road the rear end doesn't like straight lines but when running Dunlop CR65 (historic narrower tyres on track) the car drives very predictably Drive shaft is standard American 4A (with a collar) steel hub and it gets Crack tested every 18 months or so Of course if you want neg camber and toe rear end use the independant 4A-6 chassis Michael PS the BPA driveshaft which I didn't afford is one piece with a modern composite bearing and steel hub Edited April 7, 2020 by MichaelH Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Paul Hogan Posted April 7, 2020 Report Share Posted April 7, 2020 Thanks chaps for that info. its all been noted! hoges. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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