Andy Wiltshire Posted February 7, 2011 Report Share Posted February 7, 2011 Hi, Following some requests I am looking at making aluminium fuel tanks to suit the TR7 and TR8 models, in both carb and fuel injected spec, and if required, to competition spec. I already make most of the TR range and have received good feedback on this forum. Would any members happen to live anywhere near to Axminster in Devon, and be kind enough to allow me to look around at the standard TR7 set up. I have a standard tank but would like to check clearances etc to get it right. Apologies if I have broken any forum rules by mentioning my business but it is obviously the best place to ask. Thanks in advance, Andy Wiltshire Axminster Specialist Panels www.andywiltshire.com Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Alec Pringle Posted February 8, 2011 Report Share Posted February 8, 2011 Hi Andy, nothing wrong with mentioning your business - as long as it's TR related and not mobile phones, viagra, or things that take 2xAA batteries !! Mere on the A303 SW corner of Wiltshire isn't that close, not that far either, but I do have a car up in the air over the pit, with tank removed, if that's of any help ? Cheers, Alec Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Odd Posted February 8, 2011 Report Share Posted February 8, 2011 (edited) If you do want to get this noted around the world: Don't forget to tell it on the www.forum.triumphtr7.com forum, the Wedge-list at tr8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu and such places. You'd get a MUCH broader footprint that way... After having seen your work sample presentations: I'd be interested in a TR8 efi tank - in stainless steel or (thick enough) aluminium alloy. Preferably with capacity increased to ~75 litres (16.5 UK gal, or more!) for a decent cruising range... And a drain cock!!! Edited February 8, 2011 by Odd Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Wayne S Posted February 8, 2011 Report Share Posted February 8, 2011 (edited) This is VERY interesting , I'm not very close here in Lincolnshire but will be removing my tank shortly so can help with pictures if required. Very excited about the prospect of having a choice of a properly made to fit Stainless / Aluminium tank as a replacement! If at all possible it would be great to have a design that fits onto the original studs for the hangers and also incorporates a drain plug in the bottom of the tank to help with removing the dreaded water ingress and condensation that is so much of a problem with the wedges. Increased capacity for the V8s is always a good thing too Edited February 8, 2011 by Wayne S Quote Link to post Share on other sites
88V8 Posted February 8, 2011 Report Share Posted February 8, 2011 (edited) Aha. You being possibly the best maker of ally fuel tanks in the Northern hemisphere (I have to say that as I recently bought one for my TR6) would you like to say a few words about the alloy you are using, and ethanol? You might also like to chip in on the current ethanol threads in the main forum. Ivor Edited February 8, 2011 by 88V8 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Andy Wiltshire Posted February 9, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 9, 2011 Thanks for your replies. Alec, Yes, I will take you up on that please. I've sent you a pm. Thanks. Odd, I will get the first one made and put some pics up on here. Will contact you as well. I will also look at increasing the capacity, and yes, a drain plug is a good idea. Despite having a lot of experience with stainless (welding stainless on submarine nuclear reactors)I don't really like fuel tanks made of it. It's time consuming and awkward to form shapes with. In respect of tanks that are retained with straps it's not required. If the tank has mounting brackets as per the TR4, 5, and 6, the tank isn't able to flex at all, and I believe stainless tanks in these circumstances are more likely to split when stressed. I am aware of suggestions that some aluminium TR tanks have split. I have made a large number of these over a few years and none of mine have split. Mine have been in race and rally cars. It would be worth destinguishing between a stress "split" or crack, and a poor weld that has failed. Wayne, Thanks for the offer of photographs. I've already sourced quite a few. Need to see it in the flesh now. I will look at the studs that you have mentioned. Ivor, Thanks for your comments and nice to have contact again. It might sound petty but I'm not going to give much away about the aluminium that I use. It has taken me some time, difficulty and cost, to narrow it down to the most suitable grade. This takes into account weldability, and it's reaction to welding heat, how ductile it is and it's ability to be formed, availability and cost. In respect of the ethanol question I'm not an industrial chemist so I wouldn't know. I've learnt a long time ago that the internet can make everybody an expert, or think that they are. Andy Wiltshire Axminster Specialist Panels www.andywiltshire.com Quote Link to post Share on other sites
88V8 Posted February 9, 2011 Report Share Posted February 9, 2011 In respect of the ethanol question I'm not an industrial chemist so I wouldn't know. I've learnt a long time ago that the internet can make everybody an expert, or think that they are. How true. Anyway, PM sent. Ivor Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Alec Pringle Posted February 9, 2011 Report Share Posted February 9, 2011 Arrangements now made for Andy to come and measure up KEH2V, as it happens to be sitting minus tank, and not that far away. Hopefully a future benefit for Wedge owners needing a tank that won't rust, as the TR7 tank is notorious for rotting out ! Cheers, Alec Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Peter Cobbold Posted February 9, 2011 Report Share Posted February 9, 2011 Andy, 88V8 is quite right in asking about stainess tanks. I hate to say this but you could be missing a commercial advantge by dismissing information on the www. You are right to do so in many instances. By focusing only on sites from universities ( "site: ac.uk" or USA universities, "site:.edu") you solve that problem- they will be trustworthy and accurate: knowledge, and communicating it, is our business, our academic reputation depends upon doing it right. So for ethanol and aluminium corrosion we have from USA universities a brief sample: http://www.engr.unl.edu/~ethanol/unl-sae2.pdf http://pods.dasnr.okstate.edu/docushare/dsweb/Get/Document-6015/BAE-1746pod.pdf http://web.utk.edu/~scurran/e85kart/Retrofit%20of%20a%20Briggs%20and%20Stratton%20Small%20Engine%20to%20Run%20E85.pdf ....etc etc etc and from our univesities- not a lot, maybe because E10 not here (yet) , and E85 very rare. My preference for our TR7 would be stainless tank for corrosion resistance to wet ethanol (and to salt), but aluminium can be protected against ethanol with high-P nickel plating. The big problem is suppliers of components to classic car world have not yet woken up to the problem. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Alec Pringle Posted February 9, 2011 Report Share Posted February 9, 2011 Hi Peter, having talked to Andy, I reckon he and I are pretty much of similar mind when it comes to internet 'instant experts', and his comment was made with a certain amount of tongue in cheek . . . . I'm sure we'd both agree with your comments about trustworthy sources too. Meanwhile we're all busy focusing on ethanol, and ignoring pressure from the environmentalist lobbies to increase the existing permitted proportion of methanol. It's many years since I was involved with cars fuelled by methanol and nitromethane, but I do all too clearly recall the speed at which the dope fuels could consume metal . . . . Cheers, Alec Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Odd Posted February 10, 2011 Report Share Posted February 10, 2011 And don't forget up here in Santaland we have a high percentage of cars running on E85. My own TR8 efi are today fully prepared to run on E85 the day it becomes necessary. I choose to build it that way, I don't want to be stranded by unobtainable RON95 UL... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Peter Cobbold Posted February 10, 2011 Report Share Posted February 10, 2011 Hi Peter, having talked to Andy, I reckon he and I are pretty much of similar mind when it comes to internet 'instant experts', and his comment was made with a certain amount of tongue in cheek . . . . I'm sure we'd both agree with your comments about trustworthy sources too. Meanwhile we're all busy focusing on ethanol, and ignoring pressure from the environmentalist lobbies to increase the existing permitted proportion of methanol. It's many years since I was involved with cars fuelled by methanol and nitromethane, but I do all too clearly recall the speed at which the dope fuels could consume metal . . . . Cheers, Alec Hi Alec, Methanol: fantastic fuel- lots of coolth, good RON - but, yes, terribly reactive chemically - and nasty toxicity too. Its corrosive actions wont endear it to the petrol distribution companies. Butanol seems to me to be their way forward- much less reactive that MeOH or EtOH, and less affinity for water. So butanol can be pumped dowm same pipelines as petrol. Hopefully butanol wins out.But its not as exciting a fuel as methanol! Hi Odd, I'm envious of your access to E85 We have killed distribution of E85 here in UK and that really upset my plan to dual-fuel the 6. The high EtOH concentration would be excellent for supercharged engine because of the evaporative cooling from ethanol (which adds a lot to the measured RON). And with separate E85 fuel system I could make it all ethanol resistant. cheers Peter Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Odd Posted February 10, 2011 Report Share Posted February 10, 2011 Feeding an efi TR8 with E85 was (is) really simple: See to it the entire fuel system is alcohol friendly - and then just use an adjustable fuel pressure regulator at a sufficiently much higher fuel pressure to feed the engine the same amount of energy producing combustible material (despite the increased volume of the alcohol fuel) and then let the ECU and the Lambda feedback take care of the tweaking. Simple really, and a much cheaper mileage... (If only it weren't for the alloy corrosiveness alcohol fuels would be SUPER... ) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Peter Cobbold Posted February 10, 2011 Report Share Posted February 10, 2011 Feeding an efi TR8 with E85 was (is) really simple: See to it the entire fuel system is alcohol friendly - and then just use an adjustable fuel pressure regulator at a sufficiently much higher fuel pressure to feed the engine the same amount of energy producing combustible material (despite the increased volume of the alcohol fuel) and then let the ECU and the Lambda feedback take care of the tweaking. Simple really, and a much cheaper mileage... (If only it weren't for the alloy corrosiveness alcohol fuels would be SUPER... ) In UK the price advantage of E85 was wiped out by a tax rise, so its much lower energy density make it a bad deal here, unless the high octane is needed. Hence dual fuelling:run on petrol at cruise or low boost, switch to E85 at 4-10psi boost and keep detonation at bay. Ethanol stoichAFR is 9, max power around 6, compared with petrol 12-11. So your efi has capacity to flow almost double normal flow? If it would extend to three-fold, then blower giving about 7psi boost would be terrific mod!! I am green with envy about E85. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
moe and ess Posted February 11, 2011 Report Share Posted February 11, 2011 Hi, Following some requests I am looking at making aluminium fuel tanks to suit the TR7 and TR8 models, in both carb and fuel injected spec, and if required, to competition spec. I already make most of the TR range and have received good feedback on this forum. Would any members happen to live anywhere near to Axminster in Devon, and be kind enough to allow me to look around at the standard TR7 set up. I have a standard tank but would like to check clearances etc to get it right. Apologies if I have broken any forum rules by mentioning my business but it is obviously the best place to ask. Thanks in advance, Andy Wiltshire Axminster Specialist Panels www.andywiltshire.com Hi Andy great idea on the alloy fuel tanks, we would definitly be interested in having them on both the V8 and the 7,by the way if you do make the tank how about designing an accurate fuel gauge and sender unit for it Look forward to hearing more on the progress of the tank. You will enjoy your meeting with Alec,great guy,just watch out you don't get licked to much by Tyson Staffie ha ha. Cheers Moe Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Chris59 Posted February 11, 2011 Report Share Posted February 11, 2011 (edited) Andy, I have a spare TR8 fuel tank here, with 2 lateral holes, one for fuel gauge, the other for fuel pump. If you come to the Stoneleigh show, I can bring it in my van for measurements. Chris. Edited February 17, 2011 by Chris59 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Wayne S Posted February 15, 2011 Report Share Posted February 15, 2011 No problem Andy! Please keep us updated with progress :-) Happy to help in anyway possible. Wayne Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Andy Wiltshire Posted February 16, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2011 Hi, Sorry for the delay in getting back. Juggling running a business and rebuilding a house against a deadline. An update in that I've visited Alec and spent some time underneath his car and I will get a slave tank together. Alec, Thanks for your help last night. It was very much appreciated. I will drop you a pm in the next few days (probably the weekend). Peter, As Alec said my comments were tongue in cheek. With regards to the ethanol issue, this is a very in depth issue which if looked into would need the involvement of some form of chemical engineer (possibly more than one to establish facts rather than opinion), time, expense and importantly, clear facts from the petrol suppliers in each country that I supply to (23 countries to date). As a one man business I'm not able to do this. I'm confident in my products and use the same materials as numerous car manufacturers. Moe, I will keep the thread updated as to developments. Thanks. Chris, I had been planning to go to the show but commitments now mean that I can't. Thanks for your offer though. Could I politely ask that you send me some pictures of the side of the tank where the sender unit and fuel pump sit. Thanks. Andy Wiltshire Axminster Specialist Panels www.andywiltshire.com Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Odd Posted February 16, 2011 Report Share Posted February 16, 2011 (edited) Andy, remember the efi tank had an external high pressure pump + filter unit NOT related in any way to the tank itself. AND! The efi tank had a surge pot and twin holes, as opposed to the ordinary TR7 carb tank with its single hole, or the ordinary carb TR8 tank (with twin holes but no internal swirl pot)... Yes I know - It's a jungle... I'm awaiting a rusted out original TR8 efi tank from America (shipping it over here has proven THE problem, nobody wants to take on a used fuel tank) that I'm going to saw open - in order to thoroughly document it, something I'm not interested in doing with my perfectly healthy TR8 tank. I hope I get it this year... I guess you'd be interested in any findings and data? Edited February 16, 2011 by Odd Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Chris59 Posted February 17, 2011 Report Share Posted February 17, 2011 Chris, I had been planning to go to the show but commitments now mean that I can't. Thanks for your offer though. Could I politely ask that you send me some pictures of the side of the tank where the sender unit and fuel pump sit. Thanks. Andy Wiltshire Axminster Specialist Panels www.andywiltshire.com Hi Andy, will do, but please be patient : this fuel tank is in one of my barns, not close to home. I hope to be able to do this next week, don't hesitate to send me a Pm if you think that I have forget : senior moment may happen Chris. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Andy Wiltshire Posted August 16, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 16, 2011 Hi, Apologies for the delay in getting back. Have been very busy recently with both work and other. I have completed a number of aluminium tanks for the TR7/8, and I've had very good feedback with the quality of them. They are 71 litres capacity over the standard 55 litres, fully baffled, and they will take the standard sender units etc. They also have a drain plug as requested! One of the tanks made was for a race car and was safety foam filled. Thanks again Alec for your help. A couple of pictures for you, and more details on http://andywiltshire.com/web%20site%20tank%20page.htm Andy Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Beans Posted August 17, 2011 Report Share Posted August 17, 2011 (edited) Looks very nice indeed Is it mounted with (the original) straps or are the mounting points not yet fitted? Edited August 17, 2011 by Beans Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Andy Wiltshire Posted August 17, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 17, 2011 Hi, The tank is mounted using the original straps, although it would make sense to use new ones as they are quite cheap from the usual suppliers. Andy Axminster Specialist Panels Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Odd Posted August 17, 2011 Report Share Posted August 17, 2011 (edited) OK, looking very good! And a 31% volume increase to 71 litres is a definitive MEGA-plus! Impressive! Puzzled question: Does it accept the TR8 Twin exhaust pipes? - Or is it TR7/single pipe exhaust only? Question: Is the EFI version fitted with the twin holes and the soup bowl surge pot? Or do you need the design data out of that rusted out one I'm going to cut up first? Cheers, /Odd Edited August 17, 2011 by Odd Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Alec Pringle Posted August 17, 2011 Report Share Posted August 17, 2011 The website lists both carburettor and fuel injection tanks, so that's probably been covered Odd. A couple of folks have emailed to ask my opinion of these tanks. Sorry, haven't seen one yet, although I look forward to inspecting one in due course. Before long I'll find time to run down to Axminster and have a gander. I have, however, looked closely at a couple of his tanks fitted to other cars in the past, both of which looked A1+ to me. I've only met Andy the once, when he came to measure up one of our cars which happened to be over the pit with tank removed. In contrast to so many of the blaggers and bullshippers I've met amongst so-called classic car 'specialists', Andy's attitude and approach was more that of the serious competition supplier - the sort of outfits from whom I used to commission small production run race car components in a former life. Gut feeling suggests I won't be disappointed. Cheers, Alec Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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