zagato77 Posted December 30, 2011 Report Share Posted December 30, 2011 (edited) Hi Ian, glad to see you used the term tribute car rather than replica. John Williams' comment above " replica is todays accepted word for 'in the spirit of' " is, I would suggest, quite erroneous. We have previously discussed at length the historically accepted definition of a replica, which is fundamentally different from the tribute car. In terms of tribute cars though, where does one draw the line ? Is the tribute aspect primarily concerned with the external cosmetic appearance ? Or with what lies under the skin, the mechanical and constructional specification ? The question is prompted by a TR7V8 which I looked over a few years ago, and which the owner is now looking to sell. Externally from 50 yards it is a dead ringer for a works car, all the right cosmetics in terms of paint, decals, wheels, lights etc etc. Look in the cockpit and again it looks the real deal at first glance. Unfortunately it's a bog standard TR7 shell save for the extended arches and spoiler, with no reinforcement of any description, an aftermarket roll cage, and mechanically it's a Range Rover engine coupled to a standard TR7 drivetrain, and mildly uprated 'off the shelf' suspension, steering and brakes. No resemblance whatsoever to a works car in any respect that actually matters. The owner enquires of me whether he should market it as a replica or as a tribute car ? My reaction that it is neither, merely a sheep in wolf's clothing which might best be described as a 'cosmetic lookalike', has not best pleased the man. He doesn't seem to grasp that it is unlikely to be capable of completing so much as a solitary special stage, even at the relatively modest maximum pace of which it is capable, without falling to pieces . . . . To my way of thinking, a so-called tribute car completely incapable of even remotely comparing in performance to that which it seeks to emulate is not a tribute car at all. I suspect the same applies to at least some TR4s that look externally somewhat like an ex-works car ? What does the team think ? Cheers, Alec Alec Hi Alec I thought my comments might put the cat amonst the pigeons. I quite agree with your comment that these cars are more like tribute cars than replicas. A replica in my mind must be a true copy of the original but try telling that to someone trying to sell one that is not. I enjoy my car (415 VC) for just what it is. It has a strengthened chassis, uprated suspension, aluminium hard top, two sets of wire wheels, dual circuit brakes, alloy radiator, alternator, hi torque starter, twin Webers, competition exhaust manifold and system and 150 bhp at the flywheel amonst other things and most of all I just love it. Also; a correct painted dash with Jaeger instruments the convex glass. I'm in heaven. Kind regards John Edited December 30, 2011 by zagato77 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Alec Pringle Posted December 30, 2011 Report Share Posted December 30, 2011 Hi John, sounds like a damn nice package to me ! I don't really give a toss about respective values, other than thinking there's an absurd premium attached to cars that have become passports to social events. Market value isn't the point. It's the history that matters. Whether something is an original, a pukka replica, or a tribute / 'in the spirit of' / 'inspired by' car of some description. If they're all good cars of similar spec, the value of each ought not to be that far apart. But in terms of 'preserving the marque TR' (or any other marque for that matter) and its heritage, it's important to distinguish between one and t'other. Simple as that. Cheers, Alec Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Tr4Tony Posted December 30, 2011 Report Share Posted December 30, 2011 Alec - as you might imagine Ive written a comprehensive report with photographs of the car in question for future use if needs be. You are welcome to read this over a few beers when we meet next. Its not right that I publish it here. Regards Tony Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Tr4Tony Posted December 30, 2011 Report Share Posted December 30, 2011 Hi again ! This is such a good thread Id thought Id add another comment, supporting Nigels thread and probably Alec's too. In terms of 'replicas and tribute cars', for me the whole deal is visual, and some owners go significantly further than others in 'tribute' to the genune article. So long as they say so, then good luck to them, the more the better to my mind as they definately grow the Marque. Whats more the public LOVE to see our cars, and the more 'interesting' the better. See the response on the red TR7 V8 Le Mans car on the Register stand at the Classic Motor Show ....Im told tht this car drew more admiration than any on the TR Register stand ... and 3VC and Carl's full house FIA race TR4 were a few steps away. On the performance issue, Im sympathetic to Alec's point entirely. To be a 'Works Replica' to my mind, a car needs to be able to compete at the same level as the 'Works' cars did in the day, so todays rally, class and team prize winning TR4 is a different animal in detail to those of the day. I stand looking at 3VC and BST82B in my garage and the differences are marked and manifold .... another car I have will combine the two much more successfully. BST82B was never, ever built to be a works replica and never, ever will be. It will be the quickest and toughest TR4 that I can build and Nigels stage car, Steve Hall's ACE222B are another two more of a very select breed of TR4's that can, and do consistently, outgun the Healey 3000's, Volvo Amazon's, Mini's and Porsche 911's that were the competition in the day.And whats much more relevant, as Nigel points out, they attract a levl of attention from fellow competitors that is both astonishing and sometimes a little embarrasing. They go that quickly because simply they are very good cars. In my more mellow moments I sit back and wonder if the 'Works' guys had at their disposal what we have today, might they have done it my way ? Im sure in part they might have,but with more money and better done and then in the hands of better drivers. The TR4 was never as well developed as the competition ..... had it been the four cars would be worth a million quid each by now and none of us would have the wherewithall to enjoy them. Replica's .....I love them. Regards Tony Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Tom Boyd Posted December 30, 2011 Report Share Posted December 30, 2011 I have had the honour of building several of the 'tribute' cars, not one was built with the works cars in mind. Each one was built to the spec the owner wanted, some want wing vents, some don't etc. What most want is modern day technology to make the car safe and competitive in the modern historic rallies. It's fantastic to see the cars being used in anger as they should be! Tom Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Tr4Tony Posted December 30, 2011 Report Share Posted December 30, 2011 Raaaaaaaaaaaaar!!!!!! .... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Alec Pringle Posted December 30, 2011 Report Share Posted December 30, 2011 "Raaaaaaaaaaaaar!!!!!! .... " By the bloody cringe Tony, what's up now ? Is that the battle cry of the TR4, or has SWMBO just run off with your wallet ? Cheers, Alec Quote Link to post Share on other sites
zagato77 Posted December 30, 2011 Report Share Posted December 30, 2011 (edited) Why do they need to be called anything? Why not a (This will cause a stir) TR4.............with modifications? Kind regards John Edited December 30, 2011 by zagato77 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
zagato77 Posted December 30, 2011 Report Share Posted December 30, 2011 Hi John, sounds like a damn nice package to me ! I don't really give a toss about respective values, other than thinking there's an absurd premium attached to cars that have become passports to social events. Market value isn't the point. It's the history that matters. Whether something is an original, a pukka replica, or a tribute / 'in the spirit of' / 'inspired by' car of some description. If they're all good cars of similar spec, the value of each ought not to be that far apart. But in terms of 'preserving the marque TR' (or any other marque for that matter) and its heritage, it's important to distinguish between one and t'other. Simple as that. Cheers, Alec I agree. Kind regards John Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest ntc Posted January 1, 2012 Report Share Posted January 1, 2012 So what would a works 4 be worth? not in cuckoo land Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Tr4Tony Posted January 1, 2012 Report Share Posted January 1, 2012 None have ever been on the open market and I don't expect to see any in the foreseeable future either. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Graham Robson Posted January 1, 2012 Report Share Posted January 1, 2012 Two reasons for this reply : One is to wish a very Happy New Year to everyone who gets pleasure from owning, driving, restoring and improving their TRs. The other is just to re-confirm that, within the very limited budget we had available in the early 1960s, and because we just had to stay within the regulations, we did the very best we could with the cars and technology available. When I see what can be achieved with modern technology and a more 'liberal' approach to making modifications, I am in awe of what has been done these days. One other thing - 'better drivers' ? Well, yes, er, but don't forget that we did not have any funds - repeat any funds - to pay for Superstars. When Pat Moss became available at the end of 1962, I did actually ask what the 'going rate' was going to be - and found that it was more than half of the nominal budget for the entire department ! But ... once again - Happy New Year GRAHAM ROBSON Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Tr4Tony Posted January 1, 2012 Report Share Posted January 1, 2012 Hi Graham Just to confirm .... if I'd have been around at the time I'd have done it for free ! imagine someone else paying for the bodywork .... yippee ! Regards and Happy New Year Tony Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Nigel 628 Posted January 2, 2012 Report Share Posted January 2, 2012 The level of success of a car in motorsport is usually directly related to the level of financial committment of it's manufacturer. The first Escort was a cheap shopping car with relatively crude mechanicals until Ford poured millions into developing it as a rally car, but look to Lancia - another well-supported team - for the most Championship wins! Mitsubishi's competition budget was unoffically quoted as 'unlimited' when the factory entered world rallying with the stated aim to win the World Rally Championship. Multiple championship titles followed. By comparison, Vauxhall were hampered by parent company General Motors' non-competion policy and had to struggle as an under-funded Dealer Team; their cars fought bravely but despite some excellent results thanks to the efforts of some of the best drivers of the era, were never really able to compete on a level footing. Graham also raises the subject of driver calibre, and it's a significant one. There is a world of difference between excellent rally drivers and the top few who can win world class rallies with apparent ease, then as still applies today. All those top teams put a large part of their budget in to retaining those individuals, who command salaries in £millions these days. Without them the best rally car in the world would be an also-ran. As to ex-works car's values - now there's a minefield! As Graham's article in the current Old Stager illustrates, the history and indeed very identity of so-called 'ex-works' rally cars can be a very grey area! In the 'old days', rally cars were near enough standard enough to be converted back to road cars for disposal (am I right in saying this is how you ultimately came by 4VC, Ian?), but most soon became too dedicated for this option - once a rally car, always a rally car. There is constant argument over ex-works TR7's for example, and the distinction between 'ex-works' and 'works built' (usually for a private owner). Some cars come on to the market at heady asking prices despite very uncertain provenance, indeed the very nature of rally cars means that components, including bodyshells, are renewed regularly enough for the current vehicle to have few bits left that constituted the original vehicle! Not so long ago many works rally cars were passed down through amateur owners' hands at ever cheaper prices as they deteriorated from being constantly rallied until they were just fit for scrap - indeed I bought two 1970's ex-works cars in past years (with famous previous drivers), at knock-down prices for dismantling through my rally car parts business; they were not a good buy as the bodyshells were scrap and most of the parts worn out or damaged! In those days one often steered clear of so-called ex-works cars for this reason, but now in the days of soaring classic car values and further inflating prices through claiming associations with famous drivers and events, things have changed. I won't identify the cars I owned or some guy(s) will quickly pop up to claim I must be wrong because these cars still exist and they own one of them which is currently for sale at £££££££££ !!! Nigel PS: My New Years' resolution of keeping my posts to short replies instead of long rambles seems to have fallen at the first hurdle... sorry! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
stuart Posted January 2, 2012 Report Share Posted January 2, 2012 I concur with Nigel on this one, in the seventies when I used to deal cars regularly anything that had been raced or rallied was steered well clear of, or if for whatever reason I ended up with one it was hastily put back to somewhere near original looking and went "In the block" (Auction). Mind you having said that we did race a lot of Jaguars and MK2 Zodiacs that would command serious money these days. Stuart. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ianc Posted January 4, 2012 Report Share Posted January 4, 2012 As I understand it, when the four VC cars were being run as a team, the differences would have been very minor and confined to the dashboard arrangements. 4VC was sold in the spring of 1964 to Gordon Birtwistle, who worked at the factory in (I believe) a test driving role. The engine was replaced just prior to the change of ownership, but I don't know the spec. of that engine. Gordon kept the car for 5 years and maintained it in very good condition. As it was a road car, he fitted a front bumper and a towbar and, after the car had been stolen and damaged, he fitted a new, steel, bonnet and grille - these were TR4A items, as that what was available then. At some point, Gordon fitted TR4A trunnions, top wishbones & ball joints. Gordon fitted a replacement engine in August 1967 - this was on SUs and modified as Kastner describes in his Handbook, and produced about 135-145BHP. Gordon sold the car to Nick Atkins early in 1969, but Nick's new job didn't work out, so he advertised the car in Exchange & Mart and I purchased in October 1969. I paid about 50% more than one would have expected to pay for a good, standard TR4 at that time - a total of £435, which included £15 for the 6 months' road tax still to run! Apart from the items which I have mentioned (and the lack of a Halda - probably removed by the Works), the car was really in the same condition as when it finished the 1963 season and the performance was that of a Works car of that period. After a ride in the car, Darryl Uprichard told me it was the quickest TR he had ever been in (we're talking of 1970/71). Like 6VC and 3VC, 4VC has crank, rods etc of standard materials, so all 3 cars fit the homologation specs of 1962/63. Apart from Kenlowe fan and steel wheels, which I fitted in 1970 as the cost of the frequent re-building of a wire wheel exceeded the cost of a TR6 steel wheel, 4VC is really as when I bought it, which means that it is as close as anything can be to its 1963 spec from the point of view of looks, materials and performance. I haven't fitted Weber carbs, and having driven 3VC on a couple of occasions, I'll stick to my SUs! Nigel's car and Tony's Beastie (and others) have gone well beyond that, with solid billet cranks, Carillo rods, special pistons etc etc - which makes them ineligible for certain competitions. However, the performance of these cars, which can rev to much higher speeds and have a great number of other improvements, is way beyond what the Works had been able to achieve on an extremely limited budget. I applaud what these guys are doing to fly the Triumph flag in competition. Although Graham didn't manage to get Pat, he did get Vic Elford in 1963, and both Roger Clark and Brian Culcheth (in 4VC) for one rally in 1963. Ian Cornish Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mikeyb Posted January 9, 2012 Report Share Posted January 9, 2012 Evan Mackenzie's car, EBW656A, the very first of the replicas as far as I am aware, is/was for sale when he e-mailed me before Christmas. In addition to Evan's car, my list has: John Atkins with 9442VC (Red) John Charlton with 3602VC (Red - he may have sold on) Tony Sheach with BST82B Jonathan Hancox with 7VC Mike North with 93LNK Karl Wetherell with VGS634 H Armstrong with ANU497A - the fellow who started this thread. I know of a couple more not mentioned above, very close to me here in Essex, belonging to Nick Jarvis and Simon Deadman. Not sure if either are in the club. Nick's is definitely rallied hard, Simon I think does road rallying. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ianc Posted January 10, 2012 Report Share Posted January 10, 2012 Thanks, Mike. I see I had Nick Jarvis on my list, with a query (cannot remember the reason for that), 724YXT and a note saying "no vents" - no information on colour. Simon was not on my list - do you have details, please? Ian Cornish Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Tom Boyd Posted January 10, 2012 Report Share Posted January 10, 2012 Colour for Nick Jarvis TR4 is Wedgewood blue Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ianc Posted January 12, 2012 Report Share Posted January 12, 2012 Thanks, Stiggy - noted. Ian Cornish Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Tr4Tony Posted January 12, 2012 Report Share Posted January 12, 2012 And a very pretty and quick TR4 also .... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Motorsport Mickey Posted January 29, 2012 Report Share Posted January 29, 2012 TR4Tony your message box full. Mick Richards Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Tr4Tony Posted January 30, 2012 Report Share Posted January 30, 2012 Duly emptied now Mick - thanks. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MichaelH Posted February 3, 2012 Report Share Posted February 3, 2012 Have just MOT'd a powder blue 4 with ally wings bonnet and boot lid, roll cage, home made wiring loom, etc etc. Just out of the box it is horrible to drive and am starting to address some of the problems. Having run a 4A for 10 yrs in HRCR and local 12 cars I know what I want to get, but I will be going back to TREnterprises as usual to get help to try to sort the various maladies as we move up the ambitions to go back to 12 cars, HRCR road rallies then stage events if money, skill and car allows Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Tr4Tony Posted February 3, 2012 Report Share Posted February 3, 2012 Look forward to seeing it ! Catch me if you can ..... ! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.