Tr4 WORKS RALLY REPLICA'S HOW MANY !

[H TR4]

Hi all

was just wondering how many tr4 works rally replica's are about. They seem to be popping up every were lately. I only know of the following:

 

Ivan Mackenzie EBW656A, 1989

H Armstrong ( myself ) ANU 497A, built between 1986-1995

Karl Wetherall VGS 634 built by revington but not sure when

Tony Sheack BST 82B not sure when built

 

Would appreciate any more info

Thanks H

[Graham Robson]

Well, there's 7VC too - an extremely nice one too .... and there must be more.

 

To my shame, I don't have one. I could have bought 'a leg' of 3VC a few years ago, but Tony Sheack made Neil an offer he couldn't refuse (joking, joking ....)

[Nigel 628]

And North London Mike's car - another fine replica from the same stable as 7VC, Manvers Triumph.

[ianc]

And North London Mike's car - another fine replica from the same stable as 7VC, Manvers Triumph.

 

 

Evan Mackenzie's car, EBW656A, the very first of the replicas as far as I am aware, is/was for sale when he e-mailed me before Christmas.

In addition to Evan's car, my list has:

John Atkins with 9442VC (Red)

John Charlton with 3602VC (Red - he may have sold on)

Tony Sheach with BST82B

Jonathan Hancox with 7VC

Mike North with 93LNK

Karl Wetherell with VGS634

H Armstrong with ANU497A - the fellow who started this thread.

 

However, walking round the Showground at Malvern, I have seen many others, including a number from the Continent (LHD in most cases, but then 3/5/6VC were LHD for the Shell 4000 Rally in 1964). In addition, I have seen some TR4As with certain features of the Works cars e.g. wing vents.

 

My thinking is, that with 2011 being the 50th Anniversary of the TR4, there should be a number of displays at Harrogate, including:

- Prototype TR4s and Specials

- Works Rally TR4s

- Replicas of the Works Rally TR4s

- Really shiny TR4s!

- As many other TR4s as we can assemble.

 

Perhaps a TR4 enthusiast might like to volunteer to organise this part of the Weekend?

 

The reason that the replicas are multiplying is that, with Graham Robson's management and Ray Henderson's engineering expertise, the Works' team really did make the very best of the solid axle TR on a VERY limited budget, and Tony Sheach & Jonathan Hancox (rallying) and Karl Wetherell (racing) are showing that some more modern technology - which was not permitted the Rally team in 1962/3 - means that a TR4 is really competitive nowadays.

 

What do I mean by "more modern technology"? The Works TR4s were not permitted (even had Triumph been able to afford them, which it could not!) such things as: solid billet cranks, Carillo rods, tougher valves, fancier pistons etc. The components HAD to be as fitted to the road cars, except where homologated (Webers, bigger petrol tanks, different wheels), although the "panels kissed by the wind" - as Graham so delightfully expresses it - could be alloy or fibreglass (or even cardboard, I guess!).

 

As it happens, I am talking to the Essex Group (and some others from nearby Groups in the east) on the subject of "The Works TR4 Rally cars" tomorrow evening. This will be a slightly updated version of the talk which I gave to the North London and Chiltern Groups last May, and I know that Lea Valley and Thames Valley Groups are interested, too.

 

Ian Cornish

[Graham Robson]

Ian C - can I come to listen ?

[ianc]

Graham - only if you promise to sit at the back and be very, very, good, the way you were last May in Tring!

Ian

[North London Mike]

Evan Mackenzie's car, EBW656A, the very first of the replicas as far as I am aware, is/was for sale when he e-mailed me before Christmas.

In addition to Evan's car, my list has:

John Atkins with 9442VC (Red)

John Charlton with 3602VC (Red - he may have sold on)

Tony Sheach with BST82B

Jonathan Hancox with 7VC

Mike North with 93LNK

Karl Wetherell with VGS634

H Armstrong with ANU497A - the fellow who started this thread.

 

My thinking is, that with 2011 being the 50th Anniversary of the TR4, there should be a number of displays at Harrogate, including:

- Prototype TR4s and Specials

- Works Rally TR4s

- Replicas of the Works Rally TR4s

- Really shiny TR4s!

- As many other TR4s as we can assemble.

 

Perhaps a TR4 enthusiast might like to volunteer to organise this part of the Weekend?

 

As it happens, I am talking to the Essex Group (and some others from nearby Groups in the east) on the subject of "The Works TR4 Rally cars" tomorrow evening. This will be a slightly updated version of the talk which I gave to the North London and Chiltern Groups last May, and I know that Lea Valley and Thames Valley Groups are interested, too.

 

Ian Cornish

 

 

 

Ian (All)

 

If you've improved on your excellent first talk I might even come along for 2nd helpings ! (all) if you get a chance to catch this talk, don't miss it

 

Display sounds like a good idea and its a pity I'm fully committed (before you try a 2nd time to volunteer me Ian ). On a related note, the NLG are trying to get me into the Pride of Ownership BUT, a TR4 Works Rep Rally sound much more 'me' please keep me/ us posted

 

Collective noun for TR4 Rally Reps ? A 'work' of 4's, a 'stage' of reps ? ( sorry, getting carried away)

 

H: Once we know how many, what about colours ? They're not all Powder Blue thats for sure. Also spec ? Mine is pretty close to 4VC and, as I can't afford to bend it, its 'never be raced or rallied' although I've scared myself a couple of times............

[Graham Robson]

You know why the 'works' TR4s were Powder Blue, right ?

 

Our publicity/advertising people asked for a distinctive colour :

 

Red - rejected because the Healeys, MGs, and Italian cars used that

 

White - rejected because it got dirty very quickly

 

BRG - photographs badly, almost black

 

Yellow - well, just thought to be a bit insipid, really

 

Powder Blue - chosen because it was none of the above, and no factory car had used it before ....

[Alec Pringle]

Then of course there's '5 VC' . . . . . .

 

Cheers,

 

Alec

[roy53]

You know why the 'works' TR4s were Powder Blue,

 

Powder Blue - chosen because it was none of the above, and no factory car had used it before ....

 

 

What not French racing blue then ?

ROY

[graycow]

Evan Mackenzie's car, EBW656A, the very first of the replicas as far as I am aware, is/was for sale when he e-mailed me before Christmas.

In addition to Evan's car, my list has:

John Atkins with 9442VC (Red)

John Charlton with 3602VC (Red - he may have sold on)

Tony Sheach with BST82B

Jonathan Hancox with 7VC

Mike North with 93LNK

Karl Wetherell with VGS634

H Armstrong with ANU497A - the fellow who started this thread.

 

 

 

 

You can add Andrew Castell's car KSK523 to the list.

 

Graham

[zagato77]

I have 415 VC which outwardly looks similar to a works rally car. It is powder blue with the front bumper removed and two spot lights fitted to a bar. A hard top with removable panel is also fitted. Mechanically it has been uprated with a fast road engine/suspension set up.

 

What is the criteria for a replica? Please let's not get into the difference between replica and replicar as it has been flogged to death elsewhere; replica is todays accepted word for 'in the spirit of'.

 

John Williams

[Tr4Tony]

As I remember I had a choice with what little money I had to spend on cars that year ... Or have a pension, new kitchen etc etc ... Either buy 7VC on retention or put up getting on for 1/3rd of the money needed to buy 3VC from the former Trustees .... So you see why I chose the latter !!!!

 

And, having seen and inspected the car in Germany at close quarters I can confirm that it's a very nice replica of 5VC, Alec ... As the owner kindly told me in the car park when he was looking under the bonnet of 3VC and taking pictures for his 'library'. Naughty of you to ask but there it is.

 

Lastly FYI BST 82 B was built between 1999 and 2000 in my garage at home, with the assistance of my friend Chris Taylor who helped me out with the two man jobs. From then on I've developed the car with the help of Steve Hall and his team at TR Enterprises. It's a 1964 car, so actually Wedgwood blue rather than the Powder blue of the true works cars. Looking at the two side by side the difference between the colours is very marked .... But you probably need to be a real geek like me to see it.

 

Happy days!

 

Tony

[Alec Pringle]

Hi Tony,

 

"having seen and inspected the car in Germany at close quarters"

 

Perhaps you could be kind enough to expand on your observations ? This is not in any sense a loaded or tongue in cheek question, it's perfectly straightforward.

 

I don't for one moment believe that the German car is the original 5VC, nothing I have ever heard or read leads me to think that it even might be - although granted it may contain one or two components from the original.

 

However, whilst I have heard several knowledgeable individuals dismiss it as nothing more than what we'd now call a tribute car, to use Graham's terminology, my feeling from the numerous photographs that I've viewed (although I have NOT inspected the car in the metal) is that it might more reasonably be described as a replica, and a good one at that.

 

So what is your view of the car - tribute or replica ?

 

Cheers,

 

Alec

[ianc]

Evan sold his EBW656A some while ago to Michael Kershaw, who also lives in France (I have the address).

David Somerville, collector of anything to do with the Works TR4s, has built a LHD car 8YXT.

Terence Bradley had BNE559B, but my note says "up for sale".

724YXT - possibly owned by Nick Jarvis (car has no wing vents)

Steve Hall has, I believe, a couple of cars: 222B and PDF???

Nigel Alcock has a white car (I have no note of the registration number).

In February 2011, H&H Auctions were offering BNE301B (Red).

 

So that makes some 18 tribute cars and three originals. What this demonstrates is that the original formula, concocted in 1962 by Graham Robson, Ray Henderson and the small team of mechanics, produced a TR4 of remarkable strength and robustness, with considerably enhanced performance - comparable with that of the 1962/3 Big Squealey and 356 Porsche Carrera in the right hands (e.g. Vic Elford). It's a formula that can be improved upon if one is prepared to go beyond the original homologation limits and move into an even more competitive world, as does Tony with "Beastie", which has a solid billet crank, Carillo rods and a great deal else!

 

I am certain there are more tribute cars on the Continent, as I spot them at our International Weekends, but I have no note of registration numbers.

 

Then there are the TR4As which have wing vents, no bumpers, spotlamps etc, but I'm not prepared to count them as they have the wrong chassis and the wrong front & rear suspension (even if on cart springs at the back).

 

Ian Cornish

[Alec Pringle]

Hi Ian,

 

glad to see you used the term tribute car rather than replica.

 

John Williams' comment above " replica is todays accepted word for 'in the spirit of' " is, I would suggest, quite erroneous. We have previously discussed at length the historically accepted definition of a replica, which is fundamentally different from the tribute car.

 

In terms of tribute cars though, where does one draw the line ? Is the tribute aspect primarily concerned with the external cosmetic appearance ? Or with what lies under the skin, the mechanical and constructional specification ?

 

The question is prompted by a TR7V8 which I looked over a few years ago, and which the owner is now looking to sell.

 

Externally from 50 yards it is a dead ringer for a works car, all the right cosmetics in terms of paint, decals, wheels, lights etc etc. Look in the cockpit and again it looks the real deal at first glance. Unfortunately it's a bog standard TR7 shell save for the extended arches and spoiler, with no reinforcement of any description, an aftermarket roll cage, and mechanically it's a Range Rover engine coupled to a standard TR7 drivetrain, and mildly uprated 'off the shelf' suspension, steering and brakes. No resemblance whatsoever to a works car in any respect that actually matters.

 

The owner enquires of me whether he should market it as a replica or as a tribute car ?

 

My reaction that it is neither, merely a sheep in wolf's clothing which might best be described as a 'cosmetic lookalike', has not best pleased the man. He doesn't seem to grasp that it is unlikely to be capable of completing so much as a solitary special stage, even at the relatively modest maximum pace of which it is capable, without falling to pieces . . . .

 

To my way of thinking, a so-called tribute car completely incapable of even remotely comparing in performance to that which it seeks to emulate is not a tribute car at all.

 

I suspect the same applies to at least some TR4s that look externally somewhat like an ex-works car ?

 

What does the team think ?

 

Cheers,

 

Alec

[Guest ntc]

10 minuets in Kielder forest if they could last that long

[ianhoward]

 

What does the team think ?

 

 

 

I would concur with Alec - a replica is just that - is should replicate the original in all areas and therefore virtually indestinguishable from a certain (perhaps even a specific) original (whether vehicle or otherwise).

 

I tribute car IMHO would be one that teks the spirit of an original but does not seek to replicate...It could be damn close though! How close should it be to be a tribute? That's probably open to many opinions!

 

Brgds

 

Ian

[ianc]

^{Alec makes some interesting points about how close the tribute cars may be to the originals. There are those which have, for example, a chassis with ALL the modifications seen in the Works TR4s - these include the ex-Evan Mackenzie car (EBW656A), the two built by Manvers (7VC and 93LNK) and Tony Sheach's Beastie (which has even more strengthening!). I think it highly likely that 9442VC (John Atkins' car), Karl Wetherell's VGS634 and those of Steve Hall will have strengthened chassis, too.}

 

^{But then one comes to such matters as uprated suspension, secondary lighting (spot & reversing lamps), fuel tank, alloy panels, wiring loom (including extra fusing & relays), dashboard switchery, routing & protection of fuel and brake lines, wing vents, uprated engine & overdrive, etcetera. The list is quite extensive!}

 

^{Ian Cornish}

[Alec Pringle]

All good points Ian, the devil is in the detail . . . .

 

Meanwhile, some interesting observations lifted from a motorcycle discussion of similar nature

 

" An original is what it says on the tin. A survivor, maybe rebuilt along the way, picked up a few or more replacements of parts lost in combat, but always a bike – not some miraculously resurrected long lost basket case achieved by cheque book engineering. It can still do what it did in its day. Not many about like this.

 

A replica is an exact copy, like as not built by the team who built the original. If someone else built it, you wouldn’t know unless you were that man, or one of the team who built the original. It will perform just like the original, and be well up on the same grid. It’s that close - or else it’s not a replica. It might also be a resurrection, as above, masquerading as original – it’s not original, it’s a replica concocted from mortal remains.

 

Tribute is a different kettle of bike. Looks the part, and acts it too. 90% or better lookalike, and mechanical spec that may well not be the same, but is close enough. There aren’t the ex-works bits to go round. Might be as quick, or even quicker than the original if it’s an evolution job, but if it can’t even scrape onto the back of the grid, it’s not a tribute.

 

The best of the rest are cafe racers. That’s cafe racer, not Cafe Racer – capitals only if it’s an original too. Might look good, probably does, goes well too. But it wouldn’t make the grid in a month of Sundays, that’s the difference, can’t do the job it likes to think it can."

 

Perhaps a more rigorous approach than we are accustomed to, but it does seem to be a fair assessment, albeit one that would demote many a so-called original TR to the replica ranks. Rightly so, in many instances.

 

The writer is a pal of mine who regularly rides the Vincent he has ridden for 35 years, ever since he bought it from the original owner - a bike which has never lacked an MoT, or road tax, and has never had the engine lifted out of the frame. The original paint is showing its age . . . . As he says, not many about like this !

 

Cheers,

 

Alec

[Nigel 628]

I don't consider my 1963 TR4 (628 WKE, Ian!) to be any sort of works 'replica', neither is it intended to be a 'tribute'.

 

My view is neither of these; my Old English White car (not even the right Triumph white, let alone powder blue!) is built to be competitive on current historic special stage rallies. The only in interest I have in relating it to the original works TR4's is in being able to use homologated competition parts and modifications that benefit the performance. There are certain specific details of the VC cars which I have no interest in using as I haven't found the need for them; for example despite having a long, wide sumpguard I have never had overheating problems so will not be wasting a lot of money on wing vents, nice though they look.

 

I also find that the rules of modern stage rallies often change the specifications of the sixties enough that they are no longer relevant; one significant example being the current mandatory requirement for all cars to be fitted with a full roll cage with door bars. The original works cars didn't have any sort of rollover protection, and had a lot of chassis strengthening which was aimed to stiffen the car to improve the handling, as well as to improve it's survival over rough roads. But a modern full cage, bolted directly to the outriggers and chassis rails, imparts a degree of stiffness to the TR4 chassis far greater than those early mods could achieve, thus much of the chassis preparation is very different from what it originally was. The last thing I want to do to my new chassis currently being prepared is to make it an exact replica of the originals!

 

I admire the original works VC cars and their excellent replicas, but I am not interested in making mine any sort of copy of these but a rally car in it's own right for modern use . So I shouldn't be offending any purists then! I do however want to keep it a genuine historic rally car in spirit as well as the letter of the regulations - but am quite happy to use modern technology wherever it is permitted, I do not own any hair shirts!

 

Analyse that.............

 

Nigel

Edited December 27, 2011 by Nigel 628

[Alec Pringle]

Eminently appropriate and logical observations, Nigel.

 

A rally car built to current historic stage rally regs, to do the job as required. Spot on. More power to your elbow !

 

Cheers,

 

Alec

[ianc]

Thanks for your clarification, Nigel, and for providing your registration number. I am delighted you are doing your own thing, combining the best of the past with whatever modern technology you need for the sort of competition in which you wish to compete. A full roll-cage will undoubtedly make the ladder chassis much stiffer in torsion. However, I imagine that you do strengthen all those points where the team in '62/'63 revealed weaknesses under rally conditions, such as the mountings for the pins at the front end of the rear spring, the hangers at the other end of the rear springs, the rear shock absorber mountings etc. - the extra weight is very little, but the extra strength is great for peace of mind!

 

Were I wishing to create a quick TR road car today, I would start with a TR4 and use modern technology where appropriate. For example, it would have a roll-cage, it would have bucket seats and full harness, and it would use circuit breakers (not fuses) and plug-in relays.

 

Looking at my list of TR4s which I have mentioned, I realise that my original purpose was to know those owners who had cars which were markedly non-standard or special in some way, and those which were clearly tribute cars. It's useful for the club to know of these cars for a number of reasons, such as being able to respond to requests from magazines for an appropriate vehicle for a photo-shoot or article (usually with very little notice!).

 

Ian Cornish

[North London Mike]

^{Alec makes some interesting points about how close the tribute cars may be to the originals. There are those which have, for example, a chassis with ALL the modifications seen in the Works TR4s - these include the ex-Evan Mackenzie car (EBW656A), the two built by Manvers (7VC and 93LNK) and Tony Sheach's Beastie (which has even more strengthening!). I think it highly likely that 9442VC (John Atkins' car), Karl Wetherell's VGS634 and those of Steve Hall will have strengthened chassis, too.}

 

^{But then one comes to such matters as uprated suspension, secondary lighting (spot & reversing lamps), fuel tank, alloy panels, wiring loom (including extra fusing & relays), dashboard switchery, routing & protection of fuel and brake lines, wing vents, uprated engine & overdrive, etcetera. The list is quite extensive!}

 

^{Ian Cornish}

 

 

..............for the record (Ian's last post) and mindful of Nigel's comments, LNK is very close to 4VC in specification even down to matching bhp! BUT, also my own car in its own right built to my ideal specification building on what I believe to be the best foundation for a TR4, the 'works' template, as follows:

 

"But then one comes to such matters as uprated suspension (YES, as per works) , secondary lighting, spot & reversing lamps (YES correct for year), fuel tank (Std), alloy panels (steel, for everyday road use), wiring loom, including extra fusing & relays (YES, custom loom, Lucas relays), dashboard switchery (YES, all period Lucas but no timing gear), routing & protection of fuel and brake lines (YES, internal runs for both, steel spring types for flexible's), wing vents (YES), uprated engine & overdrive (YES), etc etcera" YES

 

In addition and for fast road use, extensive high speed continental touring, track days and hill climbs I have fitted a half cage, period bucket seats (MSA/FIA fixed back) and 3" FIA harnesses, all of which are fully reversible which would return it to a very close ( ? ) of a works car!

 

Please insert the least offending word in your opinion

 

Best Regards to all of us for the New Year

[Nigel 628]

The nature of this topic of discussion is unusual in that we are talking about replicas/tributes of cars which were originally modified specifically for serious competition use rather than production cars with well-defined specifications. Rally cars by their nature change in specification quickly as required for different events, as lessons are learned and as new ideas come along. The works cars only gained alloy wheels on their last rally so all replicas of earlier specification should have wire wheels, for example. Can we even be sure that all four works TR4's were exactly the same all through their competition lives, or even the same as each other at any one time? So which is the correct definitive specification to copy for a replica?

 

It would be silly of me to ignore the practical lessons of those who have gone before; WKE's current chassis is strengthened to full 'works' spec and beyond, but needs replacement because of old age and rust as much as it being now well-battered. The new chassis will be strengthened to better than works spec, plus in some other areas which have come to light during my experiences rallying the car over the past two seasons. I have learned that despite the rough conditions mastered by the works cars on the classic rallies of yore, a TR4 struggles in British forest stages, especially when the ruts from modern 4WD rally cars are encountered, so I tend to keep to tarmac rallies where possible with the odd smoother gravel events thrown in. However even on these it only takes one good rock, unavoidable at speed, to inflict damage as I have found to my cost, so skimping on chassis strengthening is not an option. Incidentally, my particular rock was being run over by even historic spec Escorts with impunity......

 

I would guess that very few if any current historic race or stage rally cars have anywhere near the exact specification required to qualify as a 'replica', and only few more could be called 'tributes'. I would stick my neck out and say that a TR4 built to exactly VC works spec (plus current safety equipment) would be hopelessly outclassed in a modern historic rally, so it's sole purpose would be for the pleasure of its owner and its admirers in recreating an homage to a piece of history. And there is nothing wrong in that. But time marches on in motorsport; not only do items like roll cages noticably alter the handling of a chassised car, but we also have modern engineering techniques and materials which can easily produce components to the exact replica specification of sixties' parts but made to a far greater degree of precision, performance and reliability. For example, I've read that works Lotus Cortinas raced by the likes of Jim Clark and Graham Hill in the mid-sixties were producing 145bhp from their twin-cam engines, yet the same cars in present-day historic racing (some of which which may well be original works cars) are now putting out some 205bhp from the same on-paper dimensional spec, historic-legal engines thanks to modern casting techniques, materials and super-accurate CNC machining. Before you cry "cheating", this is the only option where original components are no longer available. I'm sure my car's TR Enterprises-built competition engine has such advantages, even down to modern gaskets. So how would you classify this sort of thing? Original, replica, tribute, or modern historic competition?

 

Just the advancement in tyre technology alone in the last 50 years renders a sixties car obsolete in suspension design!

 

Under current MSA regulations I am allowed such items as adjustable dual circuit brakes, an electronic digital tripmeter (you can keep your clockwork Haldas!), modern wiring loom components, hi-power lightweight batteries, etc. Some Continental FIA rallies are stricter on originality, but when I read the article in TR Action last year about the TR3 on the Mille Miglia being forced by the scrutineers to run without a rollover bar and thus seat belts in the name of originality I was horrified. It may no longer be a race but it's still fast driving over some dangerous roads - if that's 'replica' classic motor sport you can keep it!

 

Oh; and so far I have been using a 'proper' works style lamp bar with a pair of driving lamps, it's pretty useless on fast night time tarmac stages, next year it will be four big modern lamps on quick-release mounts! But despite all this, my car will still be very much a 1963 TR4 and I'm always proud of the attention it gets, even from the younger, modern rally fans!

 

Nigel