Captive nuts

[foster461]

The guys who designed the sidescreen TR's clearly didnt think there was any problem that could not be solved using a captive nut. I feel like I am in captive nut hell and I have had to drill/grind as many bolts as I have been able to unscrew either because they were already sheared (fenders, wiper motor bracket) or were totally seized (fender bottoms, right hand A post etc).

 

For reassembly I was planning to use stainless bolts and anti-seize where possible and anti-seize on regular bolts (eg door screws) when SS is not an option. Anyone see a problem with that plan ?

 

Stan

[Don Elliott]

Stan - I had to grind, drill, chisel, use nut crackers, heat and penetrating oil - you name it - to get the original rusty bolts off. Many of the spotwelds for tha captive boxes were also rusted and turning the hex head only caused the nuts to rotate the capive boxes till the spotwelds broke. But it was still not possible to remove the bolts. I had to grind off many captive boxes and re-built up the sheetmetal flanges where these captive boxes are located. I paid a machine shop to make over 110 square nuts out of stainless steel with 1/4-28 UNF threads like the original ones. Many were used in the new captive boxes I bought from the usual suppliers. All the captive boxes on my 1958 TR3A are either new (MIG welded into place) or the originals were still useful. For these, I merely had to force one side of the captive box up and the old nut and rusty bit of the bolt would fall out. Then, after slidinhg a new S/S nut into the box, I'd close up that side again. This was often the case for the nuts behind the front wings on the "A" posts which secure the hinges. I've never had any problems removing anything again.

[Ashley James]

Stan

 

I've just bought new captive nuts and we're replacing every one that is suspect, but I'll use allstainless steel bolts with Coppaslip on them when it goes back. Like Don, we ground off all the old ones.

 

I keep meaning to find out where the underseal Dicer (who fixes my rust and paints the cars) uses comes from. It's like extra hard grease, it never hardens and nothing gets it off. He seems to put cavity wax over the top and it works well. All he does are classics and some are terribly rust prone like, but last well with this treatment. One thoroughly rotten Silver Dawn is still as new after ten years.

 

Ash

[M. Pied Lourd]

Stan,

 

I feel your pain. Just going through the same thing in my restoration. In some regards, I was saved by having to replace the floors during my restoration. There was no way that my seat tracks were going to come off of the old floors as the fasteners were rusted solid into the captive nuts below. At least with the old floors out, it will be easier to grind/cut the cage nuts to get the seat tracks off finally. I have major issues with the cages in the two rear side stiffeners that hold the rear of the fender and rather that try to weld in new nuts, I am replacing the stiffeners that have the nuts attached allready. Major issues on the front fenders where the cage center have rusted off and left the side attached etc etc.

 

I bought new cage nuts from Macy's and will weld these in where I can and will defiantely use some anti seize during assembly.

 

Bought new SS fastener kits from Macy's as well.

 

http://www.macysgarage.com/myweb6/Parts/tr2_3_hdwe.htm

 

Cheers,

Tush

Edited December 28, 2010 by M. Pied Lourd

[foster461]

Stan,

 

I feel your pain. Just going through the same thing in my restoration. In some regards, I was saved by having to replace the floors during my restoration. There was no way that my seat tracks were going to come off of the old floors as the fasteners were rusted solid into the captive nuts below. At least with the old floors out, it will be easier to grind/cut the cage nuts to get the seat tracks off finally. I have major issues with the cages in the two rear side stiffeners that hold the rear of the fender and rather that try to weld in new nuts, I am replacing the stiffeners that have the nuts attached allready. Major issues on the front fenders where the cage center have rusted off and left the side attached etc etc.

 

I bought new cage nuts from Macy's and will weld these in where I can and will defiantely use some anti seize during assembly.

 

Bought new SS fastener kits from Macy's as well.

 

http://www.macysgara.../tr2_3_hdwe.htm

 

Cheers,

Tush

 

 

Wow, Macy's has done a nice job with the fastener kits.

 

The only thing that saved my ass with the seat rails is that there was still petrified carpet under the rails and the rails were rotted so after I cut away the rails and the carpet I had enough of the bolt exposed to get a mole wrench on it. Stuart suggested that if all else fails weld a nut to the head of the screw.. My remaining challenge at the front is the hinge screws on the RHS A post. the LHS screws came out willingly but no amount of heat and/or PB blaster is helping so I think Mr Drill will be paying a visit soon. I dont mind sacrificing the hinge or the screws or the nuts but I would like to preserve the cages as there is not a lot of room to work behind the A post.

 

Don, I admire your dedication. You wonder why these nuts are not made with an SS option and why they cant make them the right size.

 

I think going with mild steel nuts, stainless bolts and ant-seize should be enough to help with future disassembly as long as they dont back out over time..

 

Stan

 

Stan

[Don Elliott]

Stan - Fot the flathead screws which are rusted together with the hinge plate and the "A" post on the RHS, I suggest the following which I did for both the TR3As that I restored. Use a drill into the flat head of each screw, then you can get the conical bit out after you have drilled enough of it away, Then pull away the door (or the hinges if that's all you still have there). With the RHS front wing removed apply penetrating oil at both ends of all the threaded screw remnants that are rusted into the nuts in the captive boxes. Then go the front hidden side of the "A" post and there should be at least 1/4" of threaded end of each screw protruding from the nut inside the captive boxes. Use your vice-grips and turn them as you would for a LH thread and they should screw out in the forward direction.

[stuart]

Stan - Fot the flathead screws which are rusted together with the hinge plate and the "A" post on the RHS, I suggest the following which I did for both the TR3As that I restored. Use a drill into the flat head of each screw, then you can get the conical bit out after you have drilled enough of it away, Then pull away the door (or the hinges if that's all you still have there). With the RHS front wing removed apply penetrating oil at both ends of all the threaded screw remnants that are rusted into the nuts in the captive boxes. Then go the front hidden side of the "A" post and there should be at least 1/4" of threaded end of each screw protruding from the nut inside the captive boxes. Use your vice-grips and turn them as you would for a LH thread and they should screw out in the forward direction.

 

Thats a good way of doing it Don, I do pretty much the same as the exposed thread past the captive nut is always rusted and impossible to clean up.

Stuart.

[TomMull]

Wow, Macy's has done a nice job with the fastener kits.

 

The only thing that saved my ass with the seat rails is that there was still petrified carpet under the rails and the rails were rotted so after I cut away the rails and the carpet I had enough of the bolt exposed to get a mole wrench on it. Stuart suggested that if all else fails weld a nut to the head of the screw.. My remaining challenge at the front is the hinge screws on the RHS A post. the LHS screws came out willingly but no amount of heat and/or PB blaster is helping so I think Mr Drill will be paying a visit soon. I dont mind sacrificing the hinge or the screws or the nuts but I would like to preserve the cages as there is not a lot of room to work behind the A post.

 

Don, I admire your dedication. You wonder why these nuts are not made with an SS option and why they cant make them the right size.

 

I think going with mild steel nuts, stainless bolts and ant-seize should be enough to help with future disassembly as long as they dont back out over time..

 

Stan

 

Stan

 

 

Stan, Glad to hear you are right into it. The ss bolts and steel nuts should be fine. As Don and Stuart pointed out the problem is usually with the bolt end that sticks out beyond the nut, so the stainless bolts should take care of that. I've made a few square nuts from 1/4 by 1/2 flat bar (not stainless, I don't plan to be the one to take them out next tiime) as that was faster than getting them shipped in and making the minimum order. One could do the same with stainless if one were enough of a masochist and had enough time on his hands. Oh, you do have a day job, don't you. Tom

[foster461]

Thats a good way of doing it Don, I do pretty much the same as the exposed thread past the captive nut is always rusted and impossible to clean up.

Stuart.

 

 

Sounds like a plan, thanks guys. btw although I have had my frustrations with these captive nuts many of the bolts have come out cleanly including the ones securing the baffle plates under the fenders so I am not doing too badly and things are going well so far with the demolition phase.

 

Stan

[Don Elliott]

Stan - The correct word is "dismantling", not "DEMOLITION" !!!

[Guest ntc]

Stan

You could always do what I did and do away with them for the hinge mounts

[88V8]

What size square are the square nuts?

Is 1/4" 28tpi what you need, as Don posted?

There is an excellent supplier near me who sells square nuts and stainless and UNF. The question is, all in one product? And I think they are closed until next week.

 

Ivor

 

edit - they have no square UNF nuts....

Edited January 5, 2011 by 88V8

[Ashley James]

They are in the Moss catalogue if anyone needs them, they are presumably 1/4" UNF.

 

Ash

[stuart]

They are in the Moss catalogue if anyone needs them, they are presumably 1/4" UNF.

 

Ash

 

Only problem with the current ones supplied by Moss et al is the square is too small for the cage compared to original. Looks as if the square bar they are made from has gone Metric

Stuart.

[foster461]

Only problem with the current ones supplied by Moss et al is the square is too small for the cage compared to original. Looks as if the square bar they are made from has gone Metric

Stuart.

 

 

The original nuts are .5 inch x .5 inch square, 1/4x28 thread. Triumph loved these nuts and bolts as the whole car is assembled with them not just the body panels.

 

The Moss nuts, also sold by TRF and sourced in the UK are about 1/16 inch undersized but they can be made to work.

 

Neil, what was your alternative solution for the door hinges ?

 

Stan

[foster461]

Stan, Glad to hear you are right into it. The ss bolts and steel nuts should be fine. As Don and Stuart pointed out the problem is usually with the bolt end that sticks out beyond the nut, so the stainless bolts should take care of that. I've made a few square nuts from 1/4 by 1/2 flat bar (not stainless, I don't plan to be the one to take them out next tiime) as that was faster than getting them shipped in and making the minimum order. One could do the same with stainless if one were enough of a masochist and had enough time on his hands. Oh, you do have a day job, don't you. Tom

 

 

You know, if I could find 1/4 x 1/2 ss bar I might dedicate a Saturday to cranking out some nuts but I think the ss bolts with some anti seize will do the trick and the stainless bolts I can get from my local hardware store.

 

Stan

[Guest ntc]

 

 

Neil, what was your alternative solution for the door hinges ?

 

Stan

 

 

Stan

The same as fitted to the 5&6 much stronger and with a bracing gusset also added

[foster461]

Stan

The same as fitted to the 5&6 much stronger and with a bracing gusset also added

 

 

Thats a good approach Neil. I like the bracing idea too as those A posts look pretty flimsy.

 

Stan

[Guest ntc]

Thats a good approach Neil. I like the bracing idea too as those A posts look pretty flimsy.

 

Stan

 

 

Stan

I have seen to many doors sag with the weight of the sidescreen fitted. I was told the brace will also reduce shuttle shake? when the weather gets better we will see

Edited December 30, 2010 by ntc

[Ian Vincent]

You know, if I could find 1/4 x 1/2 ss bar I might dedicate a Saturday to cranking out some nuts but I think the ss bolts with some anti seize will do the trick and the stainless bolts I can get from my local hardware store.

 

Stan

 

Stan,

 

I used a length of 1/4" flat to cut my cage nuts from. I just made them up as I needed them.

 

Rgds Ian

[Norman D]

Agree with previous post re current nuts fron Moss they are so small they drop out of the slot in the captive box,surely most of these captive nuts are unnecessary as you can get at both sides of the panels and just use nuts and bolts, with a few exceptions of course.

[stuart]

Agree with previous post re current nuts fron Moss they are so small they drop out of the slot in the captive box,surely most of these captive nuts are unnecessary as you can get at both sides of the panels and just use nuts and bolts, with a few exceptions of course.

 

The few exceptions are the ones that usually seize up If you crimp the cage a bit that does help though the rear wing elongated cages are more problematical. I have got over it before by inserting a table 4 1/4" UNF washer with two edges ground down flat into the cage in front of the nut which will stop it falling out.

Stuart.

[foster461]

I finally got the little buggers out. Had to drill them out completely but managed not to damage the A-post or the cages. I have some SS bar on order and I'm going to make my own captive nuts, thanks for that great idea.

 

While further exploring the front apron I think I may have found evidence of early attempts at sidescreen air conditioning...

 

[Ian Vincent]

I finally got the little buggers out. Had to drill them out completely but managed not to damage the A-post or the cages. I have some SS bar on order and I'm going to make my own captive nuts, thanks for that great idea.

 

While further exploring the front apron I think I may have found evidence of early attempts at sidescreen air conditioning...

 

 

 

Stan,

 

I found several examples of similar treatment on my ex USA imported TR3a and I assume its a preferred method over there for making sure that the filler doesn't drop out.

 

Rgds Ian

[TomMull]

I finally got the little buggers out. Had to drill them out completely but managed not to damage the A-post or the cages. I have some SS bar on order and I'm going to make my own captive nuts, thanks for that great idea.

 

While further exploring the front apron I think I may have found evidence of early attempts at sidescreen air conditioning...

 

Or somebody got a new dent puller for Christmas. The good news is that there doesn't appear to be much rust. Weld and grind? Phew. Tom