Graham Robson Posted September 15, 2010 Report Share Posted September 15, 2010 Yes, OK, I ought to know but .... I have always assumed that the inlet manifold/SU installation in a Vanguard Sportsman (1956 - 1958) is very different from that fitted to the TR3 of the period. Am I right - and, yes, please rubbish me if I should know better ....? GRAHAM ROBSON Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Alec Pringle Posted September 15, 2010 Report Share Posted September 15, 2010 Hi Graham, a common assumption, but not entirely correct. Well, to be honest downright wrong, I've seen TRs fitted with Sportsman carbs and manifold years ago. A handful at least of the late Vanguard Sportsman cars were fitted to special order with a complete TR3 engine and 4-speed overdrive gearbox, with floorchange - lifted straight from the TR3. Normal production utilised a hybrid engine - 2088cc, unique head (503666), 4-ring pistons (112908), twin 1.75" SU carbs (203180/1) and inlet manifold (114667), TR2/3 exhaust manifold (301144), Vanguard camshaft (301814). The inlet manifold was but a shorter tract variant of the TR2/3, nothing like the normal Vanguard installation, the head nearer TR3 than Vanguard, presumably looking for lower down torque at the expense of top end power. The carbs breathed through another unique system, the shared plenum chamber fed through a single large oil bath drum-shaped filter housing. Part of the Sportsman's problem, I suspect, was that its engine was a tuned Vanguard rather than a detuned TR unit - which is why they broke prematurely, at least until the uprating midway through production. By then it was too late perhaps. That's about as much as I can recall, it must be 30 years since I last saw a Sportsman engine, but somewhere at home I have a Sportsman parts book if you need any more detail. Cheers, Alec Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Graham Robson Posted September 15, 2010 Author Report Share Posted September 15, 2010 Hi Alec, Clearly you know a lot more about these things than I do. Somehow I had always thought that the SUs on a Sportsman were mounted at a different angle from those in the TR3, but - from what you have said - I was wrong. Well ! I've learned something new today and, as Winston Churchill once said about his own approach to life, that is one of my missions .... So I thank you very sincerely for that. GRAHAM ROBSON Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Alec Pringle Posted September 15, 2010 Report Share Posted September 15, 2010 Hi Graham, I'll check the parts book later on, and email you a copy of the relevant if I can. I've been headscratching since I wrote the earlier post, and thinking about it I'm sure the Sportsman has similar squarish 4-bolt carb mountings and similar mounting angle to the high port TR3 inlet manifold. But it is not by any means identical in detail, and the carbs themselves are an oddity - don't think they were common to anything else. Sorry I can't be more specific, I know relatively little about Vanguards generally, and too long since I looked at a Sportsman in detail ! Someone in the Standard club must surely know all about them ? Cheers, Alec Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Herald948 Posted September 16, 2010 Report Share Posted September 16, 2010 Graham, I just happened to glance over at my bookshelf and spotted issue No. 49, April/May 2003, of Triumph World magazine. Page 33 has a nice photo of the engine of a Salvador Blue TR3, while page 54 has a good photo of the engine of a Standard Sportsman! To me, the most fascinating contrast is between the two little "pancake" filters on the TR3 v. the huge oil-bath setup (and connections thereto) on the Vanguard Sportsman! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
vivdownunder Posted September 16, 2010 Report Share Posted September 16, 2010 Graham, the SU carbies on the Sportsman were HD6 1.75" which normally run horizontally, as with Jags of the era. The Oz Vanguard guys thought you were right and the carbies on a Sportsman run at a slightly steeper angle than TR's. There is a factory manual including the Sportsman on UK ebay at the moment, item 320589068255, which would be helpful. In America there is a Sportsman with the familiar TR pancake aircleaners, so maybe these were used after the TR3 drive train went in ?. The Standard Vanguard 3 Owners Club in the UK apparently have all the facts. Regards, Viv. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
vivdownunder Posted September 17, 2010 Report Share Posted September 17, 2010 Speaking to another local this morning who knows Vanguards. 1.75" HD6 SU's selected for the Sportsman ran at 30 degrees, whereas TR's ran H6 SU's at 20 degrees. Learned something new too........TR's (and derivatives) were the only cars to run H6 carbies with 20 degree angle bowls. Viv. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
I used to have one of those! Posted January 22, 2011 Report Share Posted January 22, 2011 (edited) Hi A bit late I know, but this is what I know which may help. I came across a "rogue" inlet manifold which was in amongst some other TR stuff. The number cast on the underside of the balance tube is 302134. Very, very similar to TR but some obvious differences as well. No extension to accomodate the accelerator cranked lever, large boss tapped for two bolts on the cross tube, noticeably increase angle to carb mount. It is the log type, high port and has exactly the same spacing between the ports on both engine and carb side. Four stud fixings for H6's. After some research, I have subsequently established that it is off a Vanguard Sportsman. It is mentioned in Bill P's Original book on page 68, so TR would appear to be a common transplant, although it is the first time I have come across one. I have always understood that the correcting angle of the float bowl brackets on a TR were unique, which would support what has already been said. There are two pronounced plinths on the underside on my manifold where presumably it sits on the exhaust manifold. Use on a TR would need very significant alteration because of this, also because of the linkage set up and inclination angle. Tried to attached pictures that show what I have described including a TR manifold (302118 Le Mans type to be precise) for comparrison which clearly shows the angle difference. Thanks Simon Westlake PS It is of no use to me if someone wants to make me an offer. Edited January 22, 2011 by I used to have one of those! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
pravg Posted February 5, 2012 Report Share Posted February 5, 2012 Hi Graham, a common assumption, but not entirely correct. Well, to be honest downright wrong, I've seen TRs fitted with Sportsman carbs and manifold years ago. A handful at least of the late Vanguard Sportsman cars were fitted to special order with a complete TR3 engine and 4-speed overdrive gearbox, with floorchange - lifted straight from the TR3. Normal production utilised a hybrid engine - 2088cc, unique head (503666), 4-ring pistons (112908), twin 1.75" SU carbs (203180/1) and inlet manifold (114667), TR2/3 exhaust manifold (301144), Vanguard camshaft (301814). The inlet manifold was but a shorter tract variant of the TR2/3, nothing like the normal Vanguard installation, the head nearer TR3 than Vanguard, presumably looking for lower down torque at the expense of top end power. The carbs breathed through another unique system, the shared plenum chamber fed through a single large oil bath drum-shaped filter housing. Part of the Sportsman's problem, I suspect, was that its engine was a tuned Vanguard rather than a detuned TR unit - which is why they broke prematurely, at least until the uprating midway through production. By then it was too late perhaps. That's about as much as I can recall, it must be 30 years since I last saw a Sportsman engine, but somewhere at home I have a Sportsman parts book if you need any more detail. Cheers, Alec Interesting topic. First point: I have read at other places that the sportsman is a "tuned vanguard rather than a detuned TR" but wonder where this idea comes from. As far as I know the Vanguard and TR engine blocks are virtually identical. The differences I am aware of relate to the thicker head bolts and the position of the dipstick (opening drilled at another position but both castings show the two different possibilites so the block castings appear identical). The crankshaft and conrods are also the same, at least for the early TR's. Thus the differences appear to relate only to a different head and different timing (15-55-55-15 TR2 instead of 10-50-50-10 for the Vanguard). Who knows more about differences concerning the engine block? Second point: Most obvious differences for the heads are the rectangular exhaust ports for the TR head instead of round exhaust ports for the Vanguard and a much higher compression ratio (the early Vanguard head is about 89mm high the later one 85,6mm whereas a TR has about 84,5mm). Combustion chamber shape of the early Vanguards is slightly different when compared to the TR2, however the later Vanguard heads ( I have an early and late Vanguard head in my position) have a combustion chamber shape identical to the TR4 head. Inlet port size for the later head is identical to the TR4 too. The fasteners for the manifolds have a totally different pattern on the vanguard/TR heads. The question arises why Standard took the trouble to have two different castings for a head to be mounted on the same block, and why changing to rectangular exhaust ports (not having a larger surface when compared to the round vanguard ports)? Third point: The Vanguard Sportsman adopted the TR3 head (which also implies thicker head bolts) with lower compression (8 instead of 8.5 for the TR) and had its own inlet manifold and carburettors. Exhaust manifold appears to beTR3. Now why should such an engine be called a "tuned Vanguard" instead of a "detuned TR" engine when only the timing (apparently the Vanguard camshaft was maintained) and carburettor/manifold is different when compared to the TR3 engine? Why should these differences lead to reliability difficulties? Who knows more?? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ianc Posted February 5, 2012 Report Share Posted February 5, 2012 One of the most significant changes between the blocks of Vanguard and TR is the fact that the head studs are taken to the bottom of the block rather than screwing into the top of the block. The explanation is to be found in my articles on the derivation of the 4-pot engine (TR Actions 241 & 242, March & May 2010, respectively) from which I have pasted the relevant paragraph below. Ian Cornish Head Gasket: to cope with the higher compression ratio, a considerably greater torque (increased from 60-65 lbf.ft to 100-105 lbf.ft) had to be applied to the head nuts. This caused the upper surface of the block to lift around the studs and, as a consequence, the head gaskets blew. Solution: the block casting was modified so that the studs screwed into the base of the block (i.e. the upper part of the crankcase chamber), thereby putting the water jacket into compression rather than tension. In addition, the extra torque on the head nuts squashed the figure of 8 seals at the base of the liners to such an extent that the small upstand of the liners above the block was lost, which caused the head gasket to blow! A change of the figure of 8 seals, from a soft material to copper, solved the problem. As a further precaution (remember that the liners should sit only a few thousands of an inch above the top of the block), production tolerances on the various components were reduced. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Willie Felger Posted February 5, 2012 Report Share Posted February 5, 2012 I have a Sportsman cylinder head - just like a TR2 but with round exhaust ports. Any use to anyone? Regards, Willie Quote Link to post Share on other sites
pravg Posted February 5, 2012 Report Share Posted February 5, 2012 Many thanks for the response, Ian! Now that you mention it I remember vagely to have read this somewhere in the past....totally forgotten! Where can I find the TR Actions 241 and 242 you refer to? However when checking my documentation I found that not all the studs have an increase length. And they are different for the different TR models. For the TR2, TR3 until TS 13052E we have 6 of a length of 127mm and 4 of 224mm length (thus almost 10cm longer than the other studs). The longer ones are placed in pairs between the first and second cylinder and between the third and fourth cylinder. So there is indeed an improvement but 6 studs, in particular those at the ends of the block are screwed into the upper part only. Interesting to see that some blocks tend to crack just at these positions. I also checked my Vanguard books but could not find any mention of different studs used for the Sportsman. It thus appears that all Vanguards have the 7/16" head studs. If that is so than the statement that the Sportsman engine is a "tuned Vanguard" rather than a "detuned TR engine" makes sense. But what wonders me is why should Standard put a TR3 high port head on the Sportsman Vanguard engine without changing the head studs? I hope you, or other members of the TR Register have more information in this respect. As regards my other questions, I also asked Kas Kastner but he said that he was unaware of a concrete technical explanation. So who knows more about the rectangular vice versa the round exhaust ports? Also thanks for the comment Willie. However, the Sportsman had a high port cylinder head with squaire exhaust ports (I have found a picture in my Vanguard 1960 manual). If your cylinder head looks like the TR2 with round exhaust ports, it is more likely that it is a Standard Vanguard head. Could you do me a favour and measure the head height as well as the combustion chamber depth and port diameters so that I compare that with the other heads? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Alec Pringle Posted February 5, 2012 Report Share Posted February 5, 2012 The Sportsman block differs, at least in part number, from any other Vanguard or TR block - but it utilises later TR3, not Vanguard, studs. The original crank was unique to the Sportsman, latterly replaced with a TR crank. Reliability issues related primarily to the first generation of Sportsman engines, hence the subsequent improvements, but by then too late. Perhaps it's reasonable to describe the earlier Sportsman production as more of a tuned Vanguard engine, and the latter as more of a detuned TR unit ? Cheers, Alec Quote Link to post Share on other sites
pravg Posted February 6, 2012 Report Share Posted February 6, 2012 Thanks Alec, with a TR3 head I would indeed have expected TR3 studs! Did you find the information in your Sportsman parts book and does it say more about the specific differences when compared to Vanguard or TR engines? Also the Vanguard engines were modified during the production run and it would be interesting to know which modifications were common to all engines and which were particular to certain models. Not easy to find out but I hope the forum members know more. I have a number of original part books and workshop manuals for Vanguard and TR but clearly not all the modifications are mentioned in these books. What is missing is, for example, exact information about the different cylinderheads other than the obvious differences between low and high port heads. Regards Paul Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ianc Posted February 6, 2012 Report Share Posted February 6, 2012 Back copies of TR Action: contact the Register office (but I don't know whether we sell to non-members!). I recollect Pete Cox confirming to me that there were 3 different stud lengths for the TR2/3/4/4A engine, and that these studs are very special, not just lengths of studding which you might buy from B&Q! Ian Cornish Quote Link to post Share on other sites
pravg Posted February 6, 2012 Report Share Posted February 6, 2012 Thanks Ian for the TR Action reference. My books confirm the 3 different arrangements with different stud lenghts during the production of the TR2 to TR4 and the hight tensile issue. Talking about the studs, an interesting fphoto is shown in the TR2 discussion forum. A broken off long stud had been replaced by a short stud. Paul Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Alec Pringle Posted February 6, 2012 Report Share Posted February 6, 2012 Hi Paul, the Sportsman handbook just gives the usual detail, name and number and not a lot else. It must be 35 years since I laid hands on a Sportsman, recollections are limited, and I don't have the time or inclination to pore over the TR, Vanguard, Sportman and Ensign books in minute detail just to find out all the engine differences ! The chances of my needing to utilise a Vanguard/Sportsman/Ensign engine component are not that great . . . . . Cheers, Alec Quote Link to post Share on other sites
pravg Posted February 6, 2012 Report Share Posted February 6, 2012 Hi Alec of course I understand but I think there are not many persons left that have first hand relevant information. The point is that I am collecting all possible details about the development of the Vanguard engine and the Sportsman represents one (not very succesful) direction and the TR a very succesful one. But also the TR engine development still has its secrets, in particular the introduction of rectangular exhaust ports about which,up till now, nobody could give a satisfactory explanation. It would also be very interesting to know what influenced Triumph, or whose idea it was, to introduce the high port head. Anyway, thanks for your help so far. Regards Paul Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Willie Felger Posted February 6, 2012 Report Share Posted February 6, 2012 Hello Paul, The head is low port and bears two numbers in the casting: 305679 and A93. The thickness of the head - from face to stud boss surface - is 87mm or 3 3/8". The max combustion chamber depth - next to the plug - is 18mm or 11/16". Sorry, will measure the ports tomorrow. It came with a TR lookalike cylinder block with a V prefix. I no longer have it, but it could indeed point to a Vanguard head. Hope it helps, Willie Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Willie Felger Posted February 7, 2012 Report Share Posted February 7, 2012 Hello again Paul, The inlet ports are 36mm - 1 7/16 inch and the exhausts 31mm - 1 3/16 inch. Free to a good home if anyone wants it. Regards, Willie Quote Link to post Share on other sites
pravg Posted February 7, 2012 Report Share Posted February 7, 2012 Hi Willie Many thanks for the reply. These are the same as my later Vanguard head. My later head also has the slanted water outlet as on the later high port TR heads. I am preparing a list of Vanguard and TR2 to TR4 heads with the measurments I have obtained and those found in the literature. When it is finished I will publish it here and hope the forum members can fill in some of the open spaces left. Regards Paul Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BlueTR3A-5EKT Posted February 9, 2012 Report Share Posted February 9, 2012 Speaking to another local this morning who knows Vanguards. 1.75" HD6 SU's selected for the Sportsman ran at 30 degrees, whereas TR's ran H6 SU's at 20 degrees. Learned something new too........TR's (and derivatives) were the only cars to run H6 carbies with 20 degree angle bowls. Viv. I'll confirm that. Brother Keith has a 30 degree angled inlet manifold with twin HD6 carbs fitted that came on his TR2. It worked OK. They all still reside somewhere in the lock up...... Cheers Peter W Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Fireman049 Posted June 13, 2017 Report Share Posted June 13, 2017 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Alec Pringle Posted June 13, 2017 Report Share Posted June 13, 2017 Hi Tom, that's a '59 Vanguard Vignale rather than a Sportsman . . . . . tax ran out March 1984, but it is still on DVLA. Cheers Alec Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Fireman049 Posted June 13, 2017 Report Share Posted June 13, 2017 (edited) Hi Alec ~ Thank you for that. The car belonged to a friend and carried the original Caernarfonshire registration number OJC 627. I had this number transferred to my 1956 Austin Healey '100' BN2 which I still have. Cheers ~ Tom. Edited June 13, 2017 by Fireman049 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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