smudgeh Posted July 10, 2010 Report Share Posted July 10, 2010 I've read a couple of posts of people talking about fitting heatsinks and fans to the Lucas Fuel Pump to cool it down, and wondered if anyone has tried this with any success. I realise you can get the cooling coil, but I'm wondering (as a computer nerd) whether the same principle can be applied that is used on processors in Computers - heatsink(s) on the source of the heat, with fans to draw the heat away/cool the heatsinks. Has anyone seen or tried this? Simon Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Alec Pringle Posted July 10, 2010 Report Share Posted July 10, 2010 Hi Simon, yes indeed, back in the 1970s and 80s I employed the principles you suggest, on road and track applications. Heatsink and fan benefits the Lucas pump enormously, whereas a 'cooling coil' works only in the short term and simply heats up the fuel in the tank in due course. Insulating underbonnet fuel pipes helps to stop them absorbing heat, conversely utilising finned tubes for fuel return pipes particularly, and to a lesser extent fuel delivery pipes, cools the fuel drastically. All cheap enough to achieve, recycling finned tube from scrapyard commercial refrigeration units for example. The PI saloons used a horizontal cradle to mount the Lucas pump, which relieves the strain on the bottom bearing - it was a wiper motor originally, designed to be used horizontally not vertically mounted. Few TR owners have really explored those sort of possibilities, the emphasis has been on replacement Bosch pumps for many years past. Cheque book engineering in my book, but each to his own. My past concerns were winning races on a modest budget, utilising Lucas PI kit in non-TR applications . . . . which we achieved. The PI worked faultlessly, never let us down on the track. Cheers, Alec Quote Link to post Share on other sites
smudgeh Posted July 10, 2010 Author Report Share Posted July 10, 2010 Hi Alec Do you have any pics by any chance? I've got various spare PC parts kicking around so think I'm going to give it a try. For the fan did you run the power from the same line that feeds the fuel pump or is that not a good idea? Thanks, Simon Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Alec Pringle Posted July 10, 2010 Report Share Posted July 10, 2010 Hi Simon, sorry no, we didn't take photos of technical details back then ! Fans were run from the same feed, yes, but utilising a much heavier cable than the standard TR6 fitment, which was pretty marginal at the best of times. It's a good idea to replace the standard PI supply with a heavier cable in any event. Cheers, Alec Quote Link to post Share on other sites
smudgeh Posted July 10, 2010 Author Report Share Posted July 10, 2010 Ok, thanks for the info. Will have a go and see how I get on Simon Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Andy Moltu Posted July 11, 2010 Report Share Posted July 11, 2010 Few TR owners have really explored those sort of possibilities, the emphasis has been on replacement Bosch pumps for many years past. Cheque book engineering in my book, but each to his own. My past concerns were winning races on a modest budget, utilising Lucas PI kit in non-TR applications . . . . which we achieved. The PI worked faultlessly, never let us down on the track. Cheers, Alec I'd take issue with the suggestion that a Bosch replacement could be described as cheque book engineering. A Bosch pump is significantly cheaper than a reconditioned Lucas unit, let alone add the cost of the mods you might choose to make to make the Lucas pump more reliable. The cooling coil which utilised the return flow from the PRV to circulate through a winding of pipe that coiled around the motor could be described as a chocolate teapot of a modification. Fundamentally flawed in that it cooled the motor casing rather than the pump beneath it and then returned the heat to the tank - not a problem on a full tank but when you got lower on fuel, the warmer the fuel got and thus exacerbated the problem of trying to stop the fuel in the pump vapourising. That said with many Lucas fuel pumps having limited capacity, relatively little fuel was returned via the prv so perhaps didn't heat the fuel in the tank hugely. I guess a true heatsink or cooler radiator on the upstream (low pressure) side of the fuel pump might help as the fuel in the tank got heated by the exhaust. One of the guys in the Leicester Group knew the guy that was tasked with bringing the cost of the Lucas PI system down to a price that would allow Triumph to use it and the fuel pump was one of the compromises that was made. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Peter Douglas Winn Posted July 11, 2010 Report Share Posted July 11, 2010 Andy I would like to know which Bosch pump you are talking about. I am sure there are some very cheap pumps around but are they the correct ones to do the job in the long run, without damaging the Metering unit? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Alec Pringle Posted July 11, 2010 Report Share Posted July 11, 2010 Hi Andy, In the early days of TR fitment Bosch pumps they were certainly not a cheap option, especially when some specialists were finding it necessary to change to a modified tank and to add a lift pump and a different filter . . . . All the kit we adapted for race application came from scrapyards for a very few quid - cooling tubes from refrigerators, car heater fans and 3" ducting from any old banger for airflow in and out, a chunk of scrap ally for heatsink, insulating tape from whatever, a second (empty) filter housing as anti-surge reservoir for long bends. Spray it metallic with a shakey can, add a decal from our box of American speedshop decals, the opposition thought we had some demon new kit from the States. They were halfway to psyching themselves out even before practice. And Lucas pumps were cheap enough then, you could have half a dozen for the price of a Bosch race spec pump. Agreed, the relative pump prices today are rather different. Cheers, Alec Quote Link to post Share on other sites
tonytr7 Posted July 11, 2010 Report Share Posted July 11, 2010 Hi Simon, sorry no, we didn't take photos of technical details back then ! Fans were run from the same feed, yes, but utilising a much heavier cable than the standard TR6 fitment, which was pretty marginal at the best of times. It's a good idea to replace the standard PI supply with a heavier cable in any event. Cheers, Alec ALEC WERE YOU INVOLVED WITH TRS BACK THEN. YOU KNOW YOUR STUFF,NEVER A MISSED BEAT REGARDS TONY Quote Link to post Share on other sites
fblue73 Posted July 14, 2010 Report Share Posted July 14, 2010 several motor factors sell a oil filter cooling wrap---a finned item that wraps around the filter and acts as a heat sink per se. I though i'd try finding one in a correct size for the lucas pump motor and wrap the pump and then set up an electric fan to blow over the wrap. ideally, fed with outside air instead of boot heated air but havent decided how to plumb the cool air intake yet. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Andy Moltu Posted July 14, 2010 Report Share Posted July 14, 2010 (edited) Andy I would like to know which Bosch pump you are talking about. I am sure there are some very cheap pumps around but are they the correct ones to do the job in the long run, without damaging the Metering unit? Hi Peter, Bosch simplified their range of pumps to a smaller number of universal pumps Bosch data The ....909 is fine, cheap as it is commonly used. I believe this is used in many of the TR specialists' conversions. The reality is that a Bosch pump isn't going to last forever in a Lucas environment - it's pumping at a higer pressure than in the Bosch injection set up (where it lasts for ages++). That said it is still more long lasting than most Lucas pumps! Thomas Kopka has done a diagram & photos of his home brew conversion here. As you can see the inlet of the 909 is a bit larger than the TR tank outlet so ideally you'd enlarge the tank outlet & use a high flow pre-filter (such as the Bullet). There is a lot of hocus pocus talked about the different Bosch conversions & the need for larger outlets - interestingly one of the suppliers who was a great proponent of this theory overlooked the fact that the glass pre filter he supplied to go with the pump & larger tank outlet had a smaller bore than the standard tank outlet did in the first place! Edited July 14, 2010 by andymoltu Quote Link to post Share on other sites
john.r.davies Posted July 14, 2010 Report Share Posted July 14, 2010 oil filter heat sink. Like this: Quote Link to post Share on other sites
smudgeh Posted July 14, 2010 Author Report Share Posted July 14, 2010 Oooh where is that from? That's exactly what I'm thinking... oil filter heat sink. Like this: Quote Link to post Share on other sites
john.r.davies Posted July 14, 2010 Report Share Posted July 14, 2010 (edited) Found the pic on an American suppliers website, but I've seen them in the UK. Demon Tweeks?? JOhn Edited July 14, 2010 by john.r.davies Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Alec Pringle Posted July 14, 2010 Report Share Posted July 14, 2010 Nice one John, looks just the ticket. Cheers, Alec Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Alan Burgess Posted July 19, 2010 Report Share Posted July 19, 2010 Hi, I too have been thinking about adding a heat sink but couldn't find anything of the right sort of size. Having read this thread, I decided to look again and I managed to find a UK company who, it turns out, had just three of these oil filter coolers left, all 86mm dia. Then by real coincidence, I spotted that they've put them on eBay eBay. I measured my pump motor calculated from circumference) at 77.8 mm so there is a need for some modifications to get a good surface contact etc. and I'm thinking about the benefits of a small fan as well but with my lucas pump still going ok, I thought this was a useful insurance idea. Ben at Larkspeed isn't expecting any more of these... Alan Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dykins Posted July 20, 2010 Report Share Posted July 20, 2010 (edited) Do oil filter heat sinks actually work? It is so easy to convince ourselves that our cars need the latest gadget or gizmo I don't know whether they do work or not, but here is an opinion from an MG forum - go to near the bottom of the page. Here Regards Peter Edited July 20, 2010 by dykins Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dykins Posted July 20, 2010 Report Share Posted July 20, 2010 Forgot to mention, that if you just Google "oil filter heat sink" you'll get any number of websites listing them for sale, or debates as to their effectiveness. I know this debate is about using them for cooling the fuel pump... Regards Peter Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RogerH Posted July 20, 2010 Report Share Posted July 20, 2010 Hi Peter, excellent site (even though it is MG). I must try and align my molecules - I think thats my problem at the moment, I'm all scattered. Roger Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dykins Posted July 20, 2010 Report Share Posted July 20, 2010 I must try and align my molecules - I think thats my problem at the moment, I'm all scattered. Roger I think yours have long since dispersed Regards Peter Quote Link to post Share on other sites
smudgeh Posted July 22, 2010 Author Report Share Posted July 22, 2010 I haven't got round to measuring up and trying any of the above yet. I saw the ones on ebay, but I simply couldn't bring myself to buy something in such horrendous Blue or Red colours, even if it is going in the boot of the car!! In answer to others questions, the heat-sinks will take heat away from the motor - it will work. The size and number of the fins will play a large part though, as will the contact between the heat-sink and the motor casing in how much heat is removed, and of course it will then become ambient heat in the boot (if that is where your pump is still mounted). I was planning on using some Arctic Silver (thermal compound) to help ensure a good contact and transference of heat. Whether it's actually necessary to do any of the above is really what is up for debate. The pure reason I was looking into this was to help prolong the life of the motor as I was amazed at how hot the thing gets! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mike Goldthorpe Posted July 22, 2010 Report Share Posted July 22, 2010 I always thought the correct coolant for the pumps was a bag of frozen peas. Surely a cool box, some of those ice block thingies and a few bags of frozen peas in the car..... I'll get my coat... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Alan Burgess Posted July 22, 2010 Report Share Posted July 22, 2010 I haven't got round to measuring up and trying any of the above yet. I saw the ones on ebay, but I simply couldn't bring myself to buy something in such horrendous Blue or Red colours, even if it is going in the boot of the car!! In answer to others questions, the heat-sinks will take heat away from the motor - it will work. The size and number of the fins will play a large part though, as will the contact between the heat-sink and the motor casing in how much heat is removed, and of course it will then become ambient heat in the boot (if that is where your pump is still mounted). I was planning on using some Arctic Silver (thermal compound) to help ensure a good contact and transference of heat. Whether it's actually necessary to do any of the above is really what is up for debate. The pure reason I was looking into this was to help prolong the life of the motor as I was amazed at how hot the thing gets! Hi smudgeh, I did get the 86mm unit in the post and to be honest it's just too big and needed serious modification, so I've decided to send it back and get a refund. The 76mm would be ideal, I reckon, but they don't have one that size. Like you, I think it would work and prolong the life of the Lucas pump but not this one. Regards, Alan Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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